Maria Cheung brings a biology-informed perspective into work centered on relationships, communication, intimacy, and human connection. As a sexologist and intimacy coach, she works at the intersection of science, education, and personal wellbeing, showing how knowledge of the body can become part of a career built around helping people better understand themselves and their relationships.
Quick Note: This episode contains explicit language and frank, unfiltered conversation, including some mature themes. Viewer discretion is advised.
Transcript click a line to jump the video Hide Transcript▴ 00:00 Given Look at, like, it's shaped the right way. Nice, beautiful, dark color. 00:04 Given Mine is shaped way better. I honestly, I'm not a big fan of yours. I feel like even it might be too, like, big. 00:12 Derek Like, I feel like that's not normal. 00:14 Given I mean, hey, the bigger the better. I don't know. 00:17 Maria Guys, that's no way to talk about your bits. Be nice to it. 00:21 Maria It deserves all the love and attention too, you know? Like— 00:30 Derek What are you talking about? We're just trying to figure out what vegetable to use for our soup. 00:34 Maria Oh, okay. I love soup. 00:37 Given Oh yeah? 00:37 Maria Yeah! 00:38 Derek You want to join us? 00:39 Maria Oh my god, yes please! Okay, let's do it! 00:46 Derek Hi everyone and welcome back to the So You Study Bio podcast. 00:50 Derek I'm your host Given and behind the camera is Derek. Today we have the pleasure of interviewing Maria. 00:58 Maria Hi! 00:59 Derek So, um, Maria, I guess this is probably going to be one of the more eccentric episodes, definitely different from, uh, our previous people. 01:11 Derek So for the listeners that are maybe meeting you for the first time, what is it that you do? 01:16 Maria Yes, so I'm a clinical and somatic sexologist. And also Tibetan tantric practitioner. 01:24 Maria I work out of a pelvic health studio, pelvic health clinic with a lot of physios. 01:29 Maria I'm their in-house sexologist. I also have my own private practice. In essence, I am an orgasm coach. 01:36 Derek Awesome. Yeah, there you go. That's cool. Okay, so you work across a nonprofit and an arts platform and a private practice. So which hat feels like the most you? 01:50 Maria Ah, well, for correction, not an arts platform. I did that in a previous career, if you will. 02:00 Maria It was an art and design festival on death and dying. 02:04 Maria So I've been in those spaces, and right now, yeah, it's a clinical practice. So, sorry, what was the question? 02:14 Derek No, I was— what feels most you? Like what— 02:17 Maria Ah, so many of it. I would actually say that this is— that's right, that was— it's been 3 careers, in fact. 02:27 Maria And I started off doing my undergrad in bio and then public health and ended up in policy work, health policy. 02:39 Maria But I've always had an artistic side. And what's funny is when I was studying my bio degree, looking at all of my other classmates, I thought to myself, I don't think I can be a clinician, because I 02:50 Maria actually wasn't a great student. Not great at studying, let's say. 02:58 Maria But now I know I just wasn't studying the right thing, clearly. 03:01 Derek Okay, yeah. 03:02 Maria And I've always been quite applied. And so all of them are honest expressions of me. 03:10 Maria I have a very analytical and systems-thinking mind, hence the public health degree. I can be quite creative as well. So that was my— 03:18 Derek We see that here. 03:19 Maria Yeah, yeah. I'll get into that. This is my art, actually. 03:25 Maria And so I've always been quite creative, and there's a part of me that wanted to scratch that itch. 03:32 Maria But being a good Asian kid, I had to go do the very practical things first. Yeah. 03:37 Derek Is that what originally brought you to biology? 03:41 Maria Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so what's interesting is I've always been drawn to health, so that was always correct. 03:49 Maria But what to do within health, I wasn't sure. And I was always fascinated by the body, definitely, and healing. 03:57 Maria But at the same time, I was always a systems thinker. 04:01 Maria So I was trying to understand how to do that because mostly when I had my cellular and anatomy classes, the anatomy classes were fascinating, but my cellular classes were sometimes really intense because it can get quite abstract. 04:14 Derek Yeah. 04:16 Maria And I noticed that I enjoyed my pathology classes. 04:19 Maria I loved seeing what would happen when things go wrong. 04:21 Derek Okay. 04:24 Maria learning the foundations, I was kind of like, oh, this is kind of boring. 04:27 Derek Yeah. 04:28 Maria And then when I did an internship after my undergrad in India, which was a public health internship, I worked on a tuberculosis evaluation of a program run by the WHO. 04:43 Maria And when I did that, I was like, oh, then I discovered public health and systems thinking work. 04:50 Maria And that's when I was like, oh, I enjoy the broader perspective. 04:55 Maria and global challenges and paying attention to patterns. 05:00 Maria And so I did get into health policy for that reason. 05:06 Maria And that, I remember distinctly taking a course in policy that said, you know, policy is actually an art and a science. 05:13 Maria And then I was like, okay, maybe policy is the thing for me. 05:16 Maria So public health. Yeah, so public health and policy. 05:22 Maria And, but then once I got into policy work, I was like, oh, actually there's another side of me that would like to be expressed, which was art. 05:32 Derek Hmm. 05:33 Maria So I mean, my trajectory really has been, I don't know what I'm gonna do with my undergrad degree in anatomy and cell biology after. 05:42 Maria I considered pursuing becoming a physio, interestingly, of all the different careers. 05:48 Maria At first it was physio. I even did physio internships. 05:53 Maria But then I was like, no, I don't think this is it. 05:56 Maria Did the public health internship and then was like, okay, systems stuff. 05:59 Derek Okay. 06:00 Maria And that was under— after my undergrad. And then I applied for a public health degree. 06:04 Derek Okay. 06:06 Maria And then it was in my public health degree that I was like, policy. 06:08 Derek Yeah. 06:11 Maria So then I pursued that. It led me to London, England. 06:14 Maria So I did public health work for 2 years, um, one with the NHS, the National Health Service, and another one with, um, a local public health organization, um, city council in London, England. 06:29 Maria And I loved that experience and then came back to Toronto after that. 06:35 Maria Um, and I studied at McGill, so it was Montreal. I was in a system there. 06:39 Derek Were you French-speaking then? 06:41 Maria Um, yeah, now I am. Yeah. 06:43 Derek Yeah. 06:44 Maria So I did study like, Um, immersion, French immersion. 06:48 Derek When you were in Europe? 06:49 Maria Um, yeah. And I had a French-speaking boyfriend. That really helps. 06:54 Maria Um, and so I got to experience the system in Quebec. 06:59 Derek Okay. 07:00 Maria And then I experienced the health system in England. 07:03 Maria Um, and then I got to see it in Ontario and they're all very different. 07:08 Maria Um, and having the public health degree helped me understand the different systems and how that impacts the different careers and how people get serviced. 07:21 Maria And then it helped me understand, you know, what I cared for. 07:24 Derek Yeah. 07:25 Maria Which was— I really did enjoy my work in London, England. 07:29 Maria So I came back looking for more health policy work and I ended up in critical care. 07:36 Maria So I ended up at Critical Care Services Ontario for quite a bit, for about like 8 years. 07:43 Maria Um, so that's not public health, it's still health system. 07:45 Maria It's kind of like the opposite end of, um, of like prevention and then like acute care. 07:54 Derek Mm-hmm. 07:55 Maria Um, but I enjoyed that because I got to make connections with how the system works in Quebec versus London, and then now in Ontario. 08:05 Maria And I got to actually help implement, um, like improve telehealth or like records and distribution of records, not at the record level, but at the data level. 08:23 Derek Okay, yeah. 08:23 Maria Health data for the province so that critical care physicians could make better decisions in the province. 08:32 Maria And I saw how systemized and organized that was already. 08:37 Maria in a centralized system in both Quebec and in London, and I saw how some of that was still fragmented here in Ontario just based on the way that we structure our healthcare system here. 08:48 Maria So all of that was really helpful information for my— and, you know, scratched a good itch for systems thinking and problem solving like that en masse. 08:57 Derek Yeah. 08:58 Maria And there was a pivotal experience where my roommate had gone on a date and she was at an art exhibit, Saatchi Gallery, and I asked her how her date went. 09:13 Maria She was like, yeah, it was good. You wouldn't believe, we went into the exhibit and they were exhibiting art on STIs. And I was like, what? 09:23 Derek That does sound like— Yeah. 09:25 Maria And I was in the middle of— I was actually studying my public health degree while working there. 09:30 Maria So when she came back from her date and I asked her about Saatchi Gallery, my public health training and health promotion work was like, that's so cool. 09:40 Derek Yeah, yeah. 09:40 Maria Especially because she was also a doctor, so she was unfazed by it. 09:44 Maria And I was like, how was the date? She was like, it was definitely an icebreaker. 09:47 Given Yeah. 09:47 Maria Um, and I was like, no shit, like, that's great. 09:51 Given Yeah. 09:51 Maria Um, and it got me thinking. I was like, I don't think I've seen that kind of collaboration because it was actually funded by the or like partnered with the NHS. 10:00 Derek Oh, okay. 10:00 Maria That exhibit. And I was like, that's so cool, that's such a great way to do health promotion. 10:05 Derek Yeah. 10:06 Maria Like it's very public and it's very accessible and it's just a very indirect way of talking about a taboo topic. 10:11 Derek That's true. 10:14 Maria And I went looking for that when I came back to Toronto and I didn't really see that. 10:18 Maria Find it, okay. But I shared that story with a lot of my public health friends and they're like, that's so cool! 10:24 Maria And I was like, I think I want to create a project, like an art exhibit on a health topic. 10:31 Maria What do you think for like public health or a public health topic? And they're like, we love it! 10:35 Derek Yeah. 10:36 Maria Um, so then I just, uh, brought some friends together and was just like, what if I do this on the side? 10:43 Derek Yeah. 10:44 Maria And so I just shared it with people and ended up having a team of other people just doing this as a passion project. 10:53 Maria And ended up doing it for 4 years. That passion project ended up being quite big. 10:59 Derek Yeah. 11:00 Maria And the topic that I ended up choosing was death and dying, end-of-life care. 11:06 Maria And that was actually prompted by my work at critical care at the time. 11:11 Maria So I just kind of followed that thread, having some insider information on that. 11:15 Maria It was a topic that was taboo but also one that was starting to get more popular to be discussed across Canada because some of the legal things were changing in Canada around that too. People were interested in assisted death. 11:31 Derek Yeah. 11:32 Maria And that was just legalized, I think, in 2018. And so these conversations were starting to be more broad. 11:39 Maria And at critical care, I had worked on a project that was educating clinicians, doctors and nurses, on how to have that uncomfortable conversation should a patient be close to death or possibly in 11:52 Maria that situation in critical care. And then I remember at one of our conferences that we ran in— from critical care, I remember hearing one of the nurse managers at the table that I was in charge of 12:05 Maria organizing for say, you know, we can train the clinicians, but if the family's not ready for that communication, then like, what's the point? 12:14 Derek Yeah. 12:14 Maria I'm like, that's right, communication is a two-way street. 12:16 Maria So that made me think, oh, this is a health promotion issue. 12:19 Maria And who's doing that in health promotion? I was like, I don't think anybody's really doing that. 12:23 Maria And so I took that as, as a sign that I was like, maybe this is the topic. 12:29 Maria And just serendipitously, as I started to just throw it out there, a friend of mine who had been doing curatorial studies at U of T said, you should speak to my prof and like throw this— like throw 12:40 Maria out this idea at him and float it and see what he says. 12:43 Maria So I met with him and And he was like, I love your idea. 12:46 Maria I think your idea's got legs. I'll be your mentor. 12:49 Maria And then there I had a mentor to launch that project for 4 years. 12:55 Maria I ended up spending my own personal funds to, to, um, like seed money into it. 13:03 Maria And then as I put out a call for artists, um, based on the mentorship from this, um, prof, people started— Yeah, I ended up getting, um, designer from OCAD who had had an installation art piece 13:18 Maria around death and dying move across the country. She submitted to our exhibit and she's just like, what about a festival? 13:27 Maria I was like, what? So we accepted her exhibit, her art piece, and she was like, me and another researcher at OCAD have been wanting to create a festival. 13:38 Maria She has funding for a symposium around this topic. 13:42 Given Okay. 13:42 Maria and we love your art exhibit. What if we brought them together? 13:46 Maria So then that's how we ended up having like a team of leaders around this. 13:51 Maria And then we ended up exhibiting with DesignTO based on some of their connections, which is Canada's largest design festival. 13:58 Maria And so we ended up being like a festival within a festival for 4 years. 14:03 Derek Okay. 14:04 Maria Yeah. And so that researcher is still there. Her name is Dr. 14:07 Maria Kate Sullen, and she's taken up the project and it's part of her work now. 14:11 Maria at OCAD's Design for Health Studio. So yeah, so I did that. 14:16 Derek So you did all of that? 14:16 Maria Yeah, so I really just kind of ran with that. 14:21 Derek And then how did you end up here? 14:23 Maria And then in sexology. So after doing that, I'll be honest, I was hoping kind of innocently that I could turn that into a career, but I never— 14:34 Derek Keep working on exhibit-type things in that unique sphere? 14:38 Maria Yeah, and the combination of public health With art. 14:43 Maria Yeah, with art. Health promotion with art on taboo topics specifically, because I felt like a public space for that is really important to help destigmatize and to help educate and help normalize 14:54 Maria these touchy health topics. And for a lot of people, you know, health topics can be quite scary. 15:02 Maria And so that was really the premise, and it was actually called Taboo Health. 15:08 Maria But I will admit that I didn't have the skills to create like a financial structure around that in a sustainable way. 15:15 Maria So I learned through that that I'm like, those aren't really my skills. 15:19 Maria I'm more like the visionary nerd around the topic, and I need partnership around financial structures and stuff. 15:28 Derek Infrastructure and construction. Yeah. 15:30 Maria And so that's okay. I learned that lesson. And then while I, you know, put that project to bed for my contribution, I was still at critical care services and thinking, what do I want to do after 15:45 Maria being there and doing that on the side for 8 years? 15:49 Maria And so that's when I really started to contemplate something else altogether. 15:54 Maria And actually, I was really lucky because my cousin had heard me Through the years contemplating what to do if I wasn't fully satisfied with working in health policy. 16:06 Derek It kind of rolled and came too. 16:08 Maria Yeah, it really helped me. 16:10 Derek Um, did you start like when you started doing— when you first thought, okay, you know, I'm gonna be an intimacy coach, like did you start just on your own as an entrepreneur, or was it like— because 16:22 Derek obviously now you're, you're working through through the pelvic care clinic, but was it like still relying on that business part or were you doing it more like solo when you first began? 16:35 Maria As a sexologist? 16:36 Derek Yeah. 16:38 Maria Yeah, so like now I am doing a little bit of both. 16:42 Maria So I'm a contractor at the pelvic health clinic and I also have my own private practice where people will find out about me organically. And then I'm also creating courses right now. 16:54 Derek Awesome. 16:55 Maria So I've definitely stepped into that entrepreneurial bit. 16:59 Maria But yeah, the trajectory to getting there was very much informed by a lot of personal milestones, especially because sexuality is such a personal experience. 17:10 Maria And for me, some of those biggest milestones is to even have the confidence to do this kind of therapeutic work. 17:19 Maria And that was just such a healing and nourishing relationship. 17:22 Derek Is that part of also like now what you do? 17:24 Maria Yeah. 17:25 Derek In terms of helping people navigate that? 17:27 Maria Yeah, so, you know, because I've embodied my queerness and my non-monogamous journey, I can support people in any of those stages too, exploring that, who are trying to grow into that, and to do that in a way that is nourishing but also ethical. 17:44 Derek Yeah. 17:46 Maria And that has given me a lot of street cred. And now I have a lot of community where I know a lot of other people who are in that space too, which is beautiful. 17:56 Maria And now I also know in a lot of ways it's absolutely possible for the right kind of people. 18:00 Maria It's not for everybody, but for the right kind of people, there's so many people that end up in that journey and that becomes the right thing for them. 18:08 Derek It can work, yeah. 18:09 Given Yeah. 18:10 Maria And so by the time I was in that relationship, I was like, I think I can do this, because I was literally You know. 18:17 Derek You're living it. 18:18 Given Living it. 18:18 Derek You're seeing it. Yeah. 18:19 Maria And there was another moment even before that where I was trying to open up a relationship with, um, with somebody who had no concept of non-monogamy. 18:29 Derek Okay. 18:29 Maria And I was a nerd about this. I was like, if I'm gonna do this, I want to do this well. 18:32 Derek Yeah. 18:33 Maria And so I was reading books and even trying to suggest books to this other partner of mine, and we wanted support. 18:40 Maria So we ended up looking for a psychotherapist who said that they support non-monogamy. 18:47 Maria couple, non-monogamous couples, but by the 6th session we were about to talk about sex and that psychotherapist was like, I'm not a sex therapist. And I was like— 18:57 Derek And there you go. 18:59 Maria And so I saw the gap. I was like, I am living this on the street, living this out there, and reading it and speaking to people, and I didn't feel supported. 19:13 Maria in the end, that relationship wasn't right and we weren't in the same direction, but it became clear to me. 19:18 Maria I was like, no, I think I need to like really experience this. 19:21 Maria Yeah, it was then that I was like, I think I can do this. 19:23 Maria So I registered for a sexology degree that also happened to teach Tantra. 19:30 Derek Okay. 19:30 Maria I can get into that as well. 19:31 Derek Yeah. 19:32 Maria And, and then I ended up training in it. So all of it kind of came together. 19:39 Derek Did you do it like— is it— was it a specific school? 19:43 Maria Yes. 19:43 Derek Okay. 19:43 Maria So they're called the Institute for Holistic Sexology. 19:47 Maria Okay, they're Canadian registered, they're a private institute. 19:51 Maria They were registered in Kelowna, BC, and now they're located in Costa Rica. 19:57 Maria But, but yeah, yeah. And then it's a Canadian husband and American wife that started that school. 20:05 Derek Okay, so that— now, do you feel like when you were learning about that— how long was that, by the way? 20:13 Maria Yeah, so I graduated in 2023. 20:16 Derek Okay. 20:17 Maria Yeah, so I started studying in 2021. Okay, so 2 years ago. Yeah, so this is really like my third career. 20:23 Derek Okay, yeah, yeah. 20:24 Maria Yeah, yeah, truly. 20:26 Derek And do you feel like you've been able to, based on what you were kind of taught, what I figure you've also from your own experiential learning been able to put your own flair of things like 20:38 Derek non-monogamy and helping, but was that part of what you were learning in terms of Sexology, or what, what was kind of the reinforced programming? Like, what were you trained to do? 20:51 Maria Yeah, so many things. So, um, so in the sexology degree, they really help you understand, um, your relationship to sexuality, not just from like a theoretical standpoint and from a sociological 21:07 Maria standpoint, but in an— in a— in the body. And so, for example, I work at a clinic now where I can help people with any series of symptoms, sexual symptoms, that a lot of people are challenged with no 21:23 Maria matter at, you know, what age or what stage of life. 21:27 Maria And so because it's a topic that's still fairly taboo, like even our education system doesn't teach it very practically, Yeah. 21:38 Maria everyone's kind of the blind leading the blind in this area. 21:43 Maria And so it can create frustration, loneliness, confusion in couples when they're trying to grow in this area. 21:52 Derek Yeah. 21:52 Maria And they don't know how to address their needs and wants and feel like they should or could negotiate for those things. 22:04 Maria And so it helps address very practical things. So, for example, right now I can support people with erectile inconsistencies all the way to premature ejaculation, to wanting to last longer, or for— 22:19 Given Right. 22:20 Maria And that's, you know, similar for vagina owners too. 22:23 Maria It's like, you know, not having ever experienced an orgasm to experiencing orgasm reliably without pain. 22:33 Maria And dealing with any, you know, range of symptoms from like numbness and dissociation and boredom to like hyperfixation on it. 22:41 Derek Do you feel like you— I'm kind of curious— like work with an equal amount of like penis and vagina owners, or is it more of a like one slanted kind of thing? 22:54 Maria Yeah, great question. So it's funny, the clinic It tends to get more women, I think, for pelvic— because it's a physio clinic for pelvic health. 23:06 Maria And so a lot of women are definitely coming in for very functional things like prenatal or postnatal or like menopause and such. 23:18 Maria But actually, a lot of men actually self-book with me. 23:23 Derek Yeah. 23:25 Maria So I've noticed that women will show up and they'll come to workshops. 23:31 Maria Men are less likely to come to workshops right now in a group setting. 23:36 Maria They tend to want to deal with it more privately at first. 23:41 Maria But they do show up. And I would say my practice is like 50/50. 23:45 Derek That's really good. 23:46 Maria Yeah, sometimes more men than women, actually. 23:48 Derek Okay. Do you find that it's— easier for you to work with one or the other, or do you have more experience? 23:56 Maria Yeah, actually, um, no, I'm quite comfortable working with both. 24:01 Derek Great. 24:01 Maria Um, yeah, and, um, uh, yeah, it's, it's amazing. The school that I was taught from really is very practical. 24:14 Derek Okay. 24:14 Maria Like, um, because they break down the anatomy of orgasm, is how I framed it. 24:23 Derek Yeah. 24:24 Maria And they're very physiological about it, which really actually worked out really well with my background in anatomy. 24:32 Maria They don't just talk about it from a what you should or shouldn't do societally, which is what a lot of— don't get me wrong, I didn't study like feminine studies or like gender studies. 24:46 Maria But a lot of that, from what I understand, is more sociological versus like physiological. 24:52 Maria And so what I liked about this program was it's very physiological. 24:55 Maria And then my background in public health helps me look at it from a systems and social level. 25:00 Derek So you get like the somatic part and you get the system part. 25:03 Maria Exactly. And nowadays therapy without somatics can be limiting. 25:09 Maria So, and what's beautiful is that because this school has always been trained by a woman who was actually a monk for some time. 25:17 Derek Okay. 25:19 Maria And she has a lot of her own lived experience too, because she learned it through her own lived experience and then learned through somatics of Tibetan Tantra. 25:34 Maria applying it on herself and then learning the physiological explanation. 25:42 Maria It really encompasses ancient wisdom of these practices that have been around forever for orgasm training actually, and for arousal and erotic energy training. 25:53 Derek Okay. 25:55 Maria And now through her school, they've done this beautiful merge of Explaining it in Western science. 26:02 Derek Yeah, okay. No, I was also kind of curious too, do you— are there any parts of what you do that you don't like as much, or like that are, I guess maybe you could say like, eh, whatever, I don't care 26:15 Derek too much about it? Um, or is it just like you— this is your area of passion, you really love this, you're killing it all the time? 26:24 Maria Well, I can definitely admit that I'm like a boundary fiend. 26:31 Derek Yeah. 26:31 Maria Because you can get a lot of riffraff in this profession, for sure. 26:36 Maria As a female-bodied person and presenting person, you can get a lot of nonsense passes. 26:46 Maria And there's been a lot of boundary violations that I've learned to— and that's also why my practice is online— that I've learned to just filter for earlier. 26:57 Derek It helps you to navigate that? 26:58 Maria Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So I have a lot of screening questions before people even really get an appointment with me so that people are able to be focused by the time they show up and be 27:12 Maria sincere about actually wanting to work on a particular area as opposed to get off on speaking to me. Work on you. 27:20 Derek Yeah, yeah, exactly. 27:22 Maria And it's okay, it's okay. Like, I don't judge it, but I'm just really clear that those are not the people actually looking to learn about themselves in this way. 27:30 Derek Awesome. So then we'll take a break here and then resume back for the second half where we'll learn a little bit more about Tantra, maybe how your degree has helped in currently what you do. 27:43 Derek And yeah, so we'll see you guys in the second half. 28:44 Given Welcome back everybody to the second half of the So You Study Bio podcast, and we're gonna talk more about your undergrad path and, uh, more about taboo health. 28:57 Given So jumping straight into it, what made you think art and health communication rather than sticking to the more traditional public health career path? 29:07 Maria Yeah, great question. I mean, um, It was following my intuition and curiosities, which I'm grateful for, looking back at myself, for allowing myself to do that. 29:21 Derek Mm-hmm. 29:22 Maria And noticing when I was getting bored or antsy to explore it. 29:30 Maria And for me, I actually recognized looking back that I had something to complete about that. 29:36 Maria Growing up, I wasn't really allowed to pursue the arts. 29:40 Maria You know, bless my parents, they were doing their best with what they knew, and there were always signs that I was artistic. 29:48 Maria And the rest of my family was very left-brain, like, you know, logical. 29:53 Given Yeah. 29:53 Maria And right, left brain, logical. Yeah. And I just never really suited that. 30:01 Maria Um, and there was almost like a taboo-ness to actually being creative in an artistic way. 30:08 Given Mm-hmm. 30:08 Maria And so when I got inspired by so much art that I saw in London, England, um, I let myself be inspired by that truly and just never forgot that. 30:21 Maria Um, and, and then when I came to Toronto, I just had this extra energy at that time, cause I was kind of unsettled. 30:31 Maria with my day job, um, uh, to look for another project or something to do that would scratch that itch. 30:38 Derek Yeah. 30:38 Maria Um, and, and it's beautiful because now looking back, when I first launched that first year, I invited my parents. 30:47 Maria My parents were like, what, you've been doing this? 30:50 Maria And I'm like, yep. And they came and they enjoyed it. 30:52 Maria So like all my fear about, um, not being allowed to do the arts was kind of satisfied. by going and doing it anyways. 31:01 Derek Yeah. 31:01 Given Do you think without the support of your parents, when you invited them to come see what you did, if they didn't support you, do you think you'd still be in this position right now? 31:13 Maria Yeah, I think so. I'm a pretty stubborn person. In fact, I wouldn't say that my parents are 100% like, yay, my daughter's now a sexologist, right? 31:22 Maria So It took a lot of baby steps, I would say, to be my authentic self. 31:31 Maria And I had a lot of support as I was going through therapy and group therapy to find the right people who would support me. 31:38 Maria I think, you know, I've had some people ask me since I've become a sexologist, and I've been quite public about it, including some of my high school friends and people that have known me in another 31:46 Maria period of my life, who are like, oh, wow, you're a sexologist now. 31:49 Maria And some of them privately will tell me like, good for you. 31:52 Derek Yeah. 31:53 Maria Like, wow, I love that you're just so brave. And I was like, oh, you know, no, of it, like how I got here. 32:01 Maria And, you know, a lot of that has come from finding the right people to surround myself with who understood, like, the bravery that it was taking me to be my authentic self. 32:15 Maria And I didn't need very many of them. I just needed, like, a handful of people that were really committed to me being my most authentic self. 32:22 Derek Mm-hmm. 32:22 Maria And if I could be myself with them, it was like a testing ground for me to just gain the confidence to just be more me. 32:28 Maria And the more that they like propped me up, the more that I was like, I can do this. 32:32 Maria I'm going to be my artsy self and share with those people that get it, as opposed to trying to convince people that just don't or wouldn't ever understand taking that kind of risk. 32:44 Maria And then slowly, as I continued to share in those communities, I gained the confidence to then care less and less whether people really understood that or not. 32:55 Maria And then trusted that the people that actually do get that and want that for themselves, they end up finding me. 33:02 Maria Like at parties, they'll be like, good for you, and like, I want to also change it up, and I've been wanting to do this, but I haven't had the courage to do that yet. 33:10 Maria Can you tell me? And they'd also ask me like, how did you get there? 33:13 Maria So it's only in those moments that I get that kind of validation. 33:17 Maria I didn't go looking for it, but it kind of came finding me. Yeah, it comes to you. taking those steps. Yeah. 33:23 Given Okay. So Tibetan Tantra, what is that about? 33:30 Maria Yeah, great question. So, so it's actually an ancient technology for yogics. 33:41 Given Okay. 33:42 Maria And it's actually historically the most elite form of meditative practice in the body, um, in those lineages that have Tantra. 33:55 Maria And the reason for that is because you gain a lot of awareness about yourself through training your arousal. 34:04 Derek Wow. 34:05 Maria Um, in essence, your food appetite and your sexual appetite— and I always compare the two because they're kind of similar— they're both very primal appetites. 34:15 Maria So when they show up, they're intense, right? So that's also why we have the concept of hangry, when you're hungry and you're like on edge now. 34:22 Given Yeah. 34:23 Maria So, and that is a real thing to be aware of and responsible for. 34:28 Maria And so yogis who were deeply meditating and noticing their most subtle inclinations started to pay attention to that it would get even harder when it's wrapped up in your sexual arousal. 34:47 Maria And so you get the— you kind of get to the truth of things really quickly, like your behaviors and your tendencies, very quickly as soon as you like try to be meditative or aware during arousal. And that was a form of enlightening. 35:07 Derek Mm-hmm. 35:07 Maria Or becoming more masterful with this vessel, this body. It's like an elite form of somatic awareness. 35:15 Derek Yeah. 35:16 Maria And nobody talks about it, but being sexually aroused is really intense for the body. 35:22 Derek Yeah. 35:23 Maria Sure, we see in movies or whatever, like a lot of like, oh my God, excitement. 35:27 Maria But it actually requires awareness, restraint, and also presence in order to show up for sex. 35:39 Derek Yeah. 35:41 Maria And it can be easy to actually lose that from distractions, or from internal distractions, or external distractions, or perceived threats that the body is picking up on. 35:54 Maria And those are all factors that can have us act besides ourselves, or have us, you know, act impulsively, And I think where a lot of puritanical society has gotten it wrong is that instead of becoming 36:11 Maria aware of it and harnessing it, it's like there's a lot of avoidance. 36:15 Maria Like, oh, it's just bad and wrong and dangerous to have a body that can be lit up like that. 36:20 Derek Yeah. 36:20 Maria But in a lot of ancient practices that have like true kind of training around this, they cultivated that, like, energy of, like, aliveness instead of being afraid of it. 36:35 Maria And when you get curious about that, then you can actually be, one, more aware and more responsible, but then from that comes a lot of power and clarity. 36:46 Derek Mm-hmm. 36:47 Maria Then there's more trust in yourself, in your body, to show up when you want it to, but also to, like, put it away or put that arousal down when it's you don't need it or want it in that moment. 36:57 Maria And from that comes just so much, yeah, confidence and clarity. 37:02 Maria And that's what yogic masters have been cultivating for millennia. It's just elite, elite somatic awareness. 37:12 Given Now that you've done formal sexology education, how do you feel your undergrad helps your job in comparison? 37:20 Maria Oh, uh, yeah, so much, so much. So my bio degree has really helped me understand the body, um, in a really nuanced way. 37:38 Derek Mm-hmm. 37:39 Maria Um, and I get to translate a topic that is usually very moral, especially this taboo topic. 37:54 Maria And I get to make it more practical and make it less moral in that way. 38:01 Given Yeah. 38:01 Maria So it's not a moral failing when your body doesn't show up for sex or isn't comfortable in sex. 38:05 Maria Your body is actually trying to tell you something. 38:08 Maria And because I have a bio background in understanding how cellular systems work, how metabolic functions work, how reflexes work. 38:19 Maria For example, our body is constantly trying to heal and detox. That's the default. 38:27 Derek Yeah. 38:28 Maria So when the body isn't functioning the way that we want, usually it's not that your body is broken, it's your body's picking up on something that it needs to pay attention to. 38:39 Maria it shifts the way that we look at function and performance from a failure to— it's information. 38:47 Derek Yeah. 38:49 Maria And when we understand the workings of the body, then, then again, it's not moral. 38:56 Maria In fact, somatics— and it's helped me really understand somatics, like if I was to boil it down to that— and somatics is actually something that has become more aware in the West and we have language 39:10 Maria for that now, but actually these tantric practices and other forms of somatic work have actually existed in the East or in other cultures and indigenous wisdom forever. 39:23 Maria But now we have language in the West and scientific language to explain it, and bio has been the foundation for me to explain somatics. 39:33 Maria And which is beautiful because what I do in a lot of my work now, because I have the Tantra training, is I help explain energy medicine through bio, biomechanics. 39:47 Maria Even— it even gave me the foundation to understand quantum biomechanics. 39:52 Given Okay. 39:55 Maria And connect that to energy medicine, which has been around for millennia in indigenous practices and a lot of Eastern practices. 40:04 Maria for healing, and I get to translate that to the West as well. 40:09 Given It's like a different language for you to speak, basically. 40:11 Maria Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And I feel like a bridge. 40:15 Maria I feel very much like a translator and a bridge for what both are saying, which is the same now, but I get to use whatever language suits the audience and helps people connect the dots and also to 40:29 Maria look deeper. So if their entry point is somatics in the West, then I get to get them to go even deeper. 40:34 Maria I'm like, oh, if you look at indigenous healing practices, they're also somatic. 40:38 Maria So I was, for example, in the Amazon. I'm gonna plug this plant medicine, you probably know which one maybe, out there in April. 40:49 Given Mm-hmm. 40:52 Maria And out there, the Yawanawa people in the Brazilian Amazon have been doing plant medicines that help them connect to their body at a very young age that is also somatic. 41:07 Maria And they have what's called dietas, which is to do with their diet, and they actually go through periods of deep— they like take out certain foods. 41:19 Given Like a detox, basically. 41:20 Maria Yeah, detox, yeah, in order to get more connected to their body too. 41:23 Maria So it's very similar to Tantra. So like, I didn't explain in Tantra, but Tantra, for example, um, a lot of what I do is I help people slow down during sexuality, during sex. 41:35 Maria And when they have the capacity and the willingness to slow down, um, and go through the discomfort of like feeling bored or wanting all of it all at once, um, then you kind of enter into this state where you feel more regulated. 41:50 Given Yeah. 41:50 Maria But you kind of have to go through that discomfort. 41:52 Maria So it's the same thing with detoxing sugar and caffeine and alcohol and whatever else that we're doing to self-soothe. 42:01 Derek Yeah. 42:02 Maria And so it's a very similar process, but in different formats. 42:07 Maria And so I help people connect those dots to, you know, it's not moral if you're overreacting or your body seems chaotic with sex. 42:17 Maria It's just we're not trained to understand what is happening and how to regulate in this area. 42:23 Given You talked about going to being in the Amazon and their dieta. 42:29 Maria Yeah, dieta. 42:31 Given So could I show you a picture real quick and please explain it to the audience? 42:36 Maria Sure. 42:36 Given So we came across some pictures on your Instagram and we'd love if you could just explain it to the audience. 42:42 Derek Okay, great. 42:43 Given So this is the first one we have. 42:45 Derek Oh yeah. 42:45 Given It was from one of your reels. 42:47 Maria Yeah. 42:48 Given So yeah, would you care to explain? Well, I think this was when you were in Amazon. 42:53 Maria Yeah, that's right, that's right. So this is Healers Need Healers Too. 42:58 Maria And so yeah, I really felt held. And so one thing that I was hyper-aware of since working in healthcare all of my career is that Man, clinicians get burnt out. 43:14 Derek Yeah. 43:16 Maria And I'd heard it on multiple levels. So becoming a clinician myself, I've been hyper-aware of how to manage not getting to a place of burnout, or if I get close to it, getting ahead of it. 43:32 Maria And to that point, healers need healers too. So for, clinicians or anybody doing emotional work, it's important to have spaces and places and rituals that help replenish the body and help us feel 43:51 Maria soothed proactively and ongoingly before we get irritable. 43:58 Maria Otherwise, we can't do our job very well. And that is extra integrity and responsibility on the part of clinicians. 44:08 Maria Otherwise, we can't do our job well anymore, and then our patients and clients and communities can't be helped. 44:18 Maria So making those connections to other ways to soothe this body, replenish this body, is really important, and I felt really held with Yawanawa people. 44:28 Maria They have their own practices that are very community-based, plant-based, and it was like a balm for me. 44:39 Maria And it's so important for people doing this kind of work to have those containers and to seek them out. 44:45 Maria And it's not even— it's not even like, you know, to get to a place of burnout is not martyrdom. 44:52 Maria It's really responsible, you know, to get ahead of it and to be supported. 44:59 Maria And, um, and you know what, they get it. They're very community-oriented, um, and healing happens in groups, um, and for them ritual and plant medicine has really helped them, um, have that, you 45:15 Maria know. Um, and actually at a very young age, um, I'll say it here that actually like even kids get access to plant medicine because it's the way that they keep their community healthy, and it's kind 45:29 Maria of like therapy for them in their community. So for them, supporting each other through hard times and going there is like, of course. 45:38 Given Yeah. 45:39 Maria You know, and over here in the West, we tend to be more individualist, and so it might feel harder for people to feel like they deserve to reach out and get that kind of But it's so important. 45:54 Maria Otherwise we can't be resilient through our work. And so yeah, that's what that meant. 46:03 Derek Yeah. 46:03 Maria And I really did feel held. 46:06 Given Okay. This is the second picture we have of you. So would you care to explain— show it to camera and care to explain what was going on? 46:14 Maria Hilarious. Sure. This is me at a festival with a lot of my eclectic friends. 46:26 Maria And they're a lot of my community. They're a lot of my amazing community of sex-positive people who also know how to be self-expressed and quirky and authentic. 46:40 Given Yeah. 46:41 Maria And so I'm super grateful for the community that I've surrounded myself with who are also about that life, you know, being their most authentic self. And supporting each other in that. 46:53 Given That's amazing. Have you ever faced skepticism from more traditional scientific or medical circles about the path you've taken? 47:04 Maria Great question. I mean, not like— actually not as much as I have been like worried about. 47:15 Maria To be honest. I mean, I get a lot of questions when I'm at parties, you know, just like, what does a sexologist do? 47:24 Maria What's Tantra? It really helps that I have a scientific background, that I have a biomedical background, because I can break it down to very practical terms. 47:40 Maria And then for the right audience, I will share the more energy medicine meditative stuff. 47:45 Maria It's true that that depends on the audience. And even with, you know, being a sexologist, I won't, you know, tell my Uber driver that, um, uh, you know, um, Yeah. 48:00 Maria necessarily. So I've learned, I've learned to really, um, pick my audience. 48:07 Maria And if they're genuinely curious, then I go there. 48:10 Maria And if they're genuinely not, and it's sounds like they're coming from a place of criticism or just like salaciousness, then I like don't participate. 48:19 Maria Yeah, shut it down. So that's kind of how I've learned to navigate protecting myself and also discerning like, you know, people that actually care. Yeah. 48:32 Given What's the most rewarding part of the work you do today? 48:38 Maria Great question. So many things, so many things. Honestly, it's getting to acknowledge that people are dedicated to their pleasure and are waking up to that it's important and not just a frivolous 48:56 Maria thing to deal with on the back burner, and that they are growing. 49:03 Given Yeah. 49:04 Maria I get to acknowledge people that, like, you're not broken or you're not wrong for wanting to have these hard conversations or wanting to, you know, grow together or grow more authentically in this area, that's a great thing. 49:18 Derek Yeah. 49:19 Maria It's a hard thing to be growth-minded about in a society that still keeps us fairly hidden, that you can grow and everybody deserves to learn and grow in this area. 49:30 Maria So I'm just thrilled when I see people show up. Yeah, like anybody just like booking a call, the first thing I tell them is I acknowledge you for showing up because like I know how hard it is to even know that I exist as a profession. 49:43 Given Yeah. 49:44 Maria Um, and let alone like book a call and then to say like, I'm ready to grow, I'm ready to learn, I'm ready to like learn what's next or how to show up in this area in a way that's authentic to me and 49:56 Maria authentic to the pleasure that I want to have with, you know, the people that I'm sharing this with. 49:59 Maria Um, and I know that that's a big deal, so I acknowledge them for not Giving up and trusting that a part of them is like, maybe it doesn't have to have so much suffering attached to this area, or 50:12 Maria shame, or judgment, or fear. And that— and ease, that they deserve ease and play and curiosity and wonder, you know? 50:25 Maria And to be on a path to pursue that and reclaim that. 50:29 Derek Yeah. 50:31 Given If a student wanted to combine science with a more creative or entrepreneurial path, what's one practical first step that you'd recommend? 50:41 Maria Great question. Follow— yeah, follow your curiosities. 50:55 Maria Yeah, that was— I would say that would be the main thing. Follow your curiosities, let yourself get whimsy. 51:01 Derek Yeah. 51:03 Maria Um, yeah, and, and, and just put it out there. I think that's the biggest thing. 51:10 Maria Put it out there. You'll find your whimsy people who will enable your whimsy ideas. 51:16 Maria Um, keep those people close. Um, and And the more creative and dreaming people that you keep around you who actually want to, like, try stuff, the more that you'll be encouraged to be like, yeah, why 51:36 Maria not? So that's what I would say is, you know, let yourself dream. 51:44 Given Mm-hmm. 51:45 Maria And like, and like, almost like egg each other on to keep dreaming. 51:50 Maria I now surround myself with people who are also dreaming in that way and taking those kinds of risks, and it's now become like a playful thing where you're like, okay, like, you know, I met a friend 52:01 Maria of mine who does decolonial work and plant medicine work, and I only met her a year ago, and now we ended up in the Amazon. 52:11 Derek So— 52:11 Maria Oh, wow. So like, You know, we met each other at a party. 52:17 Maria She introduced a podcast to me. The podcast had a lot of like stuff that I was interested in, but I didn't have that much community talking about like mystical, spiritual, but also like cultural and 52:31 Maria decolonial stuff. And so just that allowed me to be like, hey, you might be my people. 52:37 Derek Yeah. 52:38 Maria And then the next time we saw each other, we're like nerding out about that. 52:42 Maria We ran with that. And then I introduced a documentary to her about indigenous wisdom and we were both like, whoa. 52:49 Maria And she was like, whoa. And then a year later she's just like, I got an invitation to go to the Amazon. 52:53 Maria Do you want to go to the Amazon? I was like, yes. And now we're like creating a podcast together. 52:59 Given That's amazing. 53:00 Maria And I've helped her and supported her in a lot of ways. 53:03 Maria And she supported me in different areas. And so it's just kind of a beautiful collaboration. 53:09 Maria And that's kind of how it started even with like the Death Festival. 53:12 Derek too. 53:13 Maria So just putting it out there and seeing who jives with that. 53:18 Given Now, what's one piece of advice you'd give to your undergraduate self? 53:23 Maria Oh, it gets better. Yeah, I had a lot of imposter syndrome when I was in my undergrad because I wasn't— I didn't have the best grades, so I was quite worried And I felt like a lot of my peers were 53:40 Maria getting into their professions a lot quicker and a lot more— 53:45 Given A fine line that they took. 53:46 Maria Yeah, in that very like, I'm gonna be a lawyer, so now I'm just a lawyer now. 53:50 Maria Yeah, I was just like, man, like, that's not that straightforward for me. 53:54 Maria Um, uh, so not to worry about comparing myself to where other people are at and just trust my own journey. 54:05 Maria I'd say that would be a big one. And yeah, and then I'm gonna find my own way of like merging my multi— multiple passions. 54:20 Given Yeah. 54:22 Maria And that's perfectly acceptable. 54:24 Derek Yeah. 54:24 Maria You know, and gonna be way more fun that way too. Yeah, that's what I would say. 54:32 Given Well, thank you so much, Maria, for your time today. 54:35 Given I feel like the conversation was really fruitful and pleasant. 54:39 Given Well, for everybody watching back at home, thank you for tuning in to today's episode of the So You Study Bio podcast, and we will catch you guys in the next episode. 54:49 Maria Thank you so much. I had so much fun. 55:47 Given We want to say a huge thank you to Maria for opening up her home and office to us, for letting us hang out with her and her wonderful cat Zane for the afternoon. 55:56 Given But beyond the incredibly interesting subject matter, if there's one thing we hope you take away, it's this: don't be afraid to follow your passions, and don't be afraid to build a career on your 56:06 Given lived experience. If you're interested in learning more about her work, you can find Maria and her services at Proactive Pelvic Healthcare Center online. 56:15 Given And a quick note that might surprise you is a lot of what she offers is actually covered by insurance, and many services are tax deductible. 56:22 Given So it's worth looking into if this is something that resonates with you. 56:26 Given Thank you so much, Maria. We can't wait to catch up with you again soon. See you next time on So You Studied Bio. 56:33 Derek Bye.
