Dr. Lawrence Goodridge works on the hidden side of food safety, using microbiology, genomics, bioinformatics, and rapid diagnostics to detect and track pathogens before they become larger public-health threats. As Director of the Canadian Research Institute for Food Safety, his work connects laboratory science with real-world surveillance, showing how biology can protect people across the food system and beyond.
Transcript click a line to jump the video Hide Transcript▴ 00:00 Derek Oh man, I am so hungry. I can't wait to eat, man. 00:07 Given Eat? What? Where'd you get that from? 00:10 Derek Oh, this? 00:11 Given Yeah. 00:11 Derek From the freezer. 00:13 Given What freezer? 00:14 Derek This one. The— 00:16 Given You mean the cryofreezer? 00:18 Derek I mean, it's still a freezer, right? 00:20 Given Okay, but I don't think you can eat that. 00:24 Derek I mean— It's in the freezer. 00:28 Lawrence Why would I eat it? 00:29 Given Okay. 00:29 Derek It's edible. 00:30 Given I, I guess. Go ahead, I guess. 00:32 Derek Yeah, I'm hungry. 00:34 Given Okay. 00:34 Derek Oh my goodness, bro, my stomach. 00:42 Lawrence Hey Derek, what's going on? You don't look so good. Is everything okay? 00:46 Derek No, my stomach hurts. 00:50 Lawrence Looks like you might have some kind of foodborne illness. Wait, Did you eat this? 00:56 Derek Yeah. 00:57 Lawrence That you got from this freezer? 01:00 Derek Yeah. 01:02 Lawrence Oh, Derek, man, this is a lab. We're gonna have to seriously talk. 01:08 Derek I'm sorry, I was hungry. Welcome everybody back to the So You Study Bio podcast. 01:20 Derek Today, we're joined here by Dr. Lawrence Goodridge. Welcome, sir. 01:25 Lawrence Thank you. 01:26 Derek So I'm your host Derek, and we have Gavin behind the camera. 01:29 Derek And yeah, let's get straight into it. So for someone who's never heard of your name before, who are you and what do you actually do? 01:37 Lawrence So my name is Lawrence Goodridge, and I'm a professor and a Canada Research Chair in Foodborne Pathogen Dynamics which means that I study bacteria and other microorganisms that cause foodborne 01:52 Lawrence illnesses like E. coli and Salmonella. And I'm also the director of the Canadian Research Institute for Food Safety here at the University of Guelph. 02:02 Derek Amazing, amazing. Now, if you had to describe your job to a stranger at a dinner party, how would you possibly put it? 02:11 Lawrence Well, I would describe my job as trying to improve the safety of foods that Canadians consume every day. 02:19 Lawrence Because every year, approximately 1 in 8 Canadians become sick from foodborne illness just because they do something that we all like to do, we all need to do, and that is consume food. 02:36 Derek Yeah. 02:36 Lawrence And so my day consists of doing research to try to figure out how these microorganisms contaminate foods, how we can detect them faster, how we can produce food so it's safer. 02:53 Lawrence And then I also spend part of my day educating students who are the next generation of food professionals who will go out and produce food. 03:00 Derek Amazing. What does a normal week look like for you right now? 03:05 Lawrence Well, a normal week It looks like spending some time with my graduate students doing research to go over the results, and, and we discuss any problems that might come up on their individual projects. 03:19 Lawrence I also spend time writing grant proposals because we need money. 03:24 Derek Yeah. 03:24 Lawrence To do the research. I also spend time helping my students and staff publish papers in scientific journals. 03:34 Lawrence And I also spend time mentoring students. So these include my graduate students, but also undergraduate students, but also increasingly students in elementary school and high school because they really are the next generation. 03:52 Derek Yeah. 03:52 Lawrence And we really need to— 03:53 Derek Yeah, gotta get it from the root. 03:55 Lawrence Yes, exactly. And help them get excited about science. 03:58 Derek Yeah. 03:59 Lawrence And then also educating the public. about food science and foodborne illnesses through interviews with media organizations. 04:08 Derek You seem to do a lot of things, you know. 04:11 Lawrence I'm really busy, but it's a good busy. I really, really enjoy what I do. 04:17 Lawrence I believe that, you know, I'm helping to play a part in helping to keep the Canadian food supply safe, and that's something that I take very seriously. 04:27 Lawrence And so it's It's something that gives me great satisfaction. 04:33 Derek You're a food microbiologist and a Canada Research Chair. 04:37 Derek What does a Canada Research Chair actually mean in plain terms? 04:41 Lawrence So, the Canada Research Chair program is one of the top research programs in Canada. 04:48 Lawrence It awards chairs, which really means funding, to top researchers across Canada in any field. 04:56 Lawrence So, I happen to be in food science, but it could be in cancer biology, it could be in environmental sciences, it could be in chemistry or physics. 05:12 Lawrence And so, there are 2 types of chairs. One is a Tier 1 chair, which is awarded to people who are senior scientists such as myself, who are considered the top of their field in Canada and 05:24 Lawrence internationally. And then Tier 2 chairs, which are provided to junior faculty, those who are emerging as future leaders in their fields. 05:35 Derek You grew up in Hamilton with a nurse for a mother and a researcher for a father. Did science ever feel optional to you? 05:46 Lawrence Well, you know, my family's from the West Indies, and typical West Indian families like to, you know, push— I'm going to use the term push— their children into fields that they think will help them 06:04 Lawrence become financially successful. So for me, even though my dad was a researcher, we didn't really talk about science. 06:12 Lawrence My choices were medical school, dentistry, and law school. 06:17 Derek Okay. 06:18 Lawrence But it wasn't until I really came to the University of Guelph, because I did my degrees here, that I learned about microbiology and was really drawn into and became interested in research. 06:34 Derek What's the earliest memory you have of being curious about biology or microbiology specifically? 06:40 Lawrence It started in grade 13. So I'm old enough that there used to be in Ontario a grade 13 that I think was abolished in the year 2000 or 1999 or something like that. 06:52 Lawrence anything like that. And I had a science teacher at my high school in Dundas, Ontario, and he really taught us about microbiology, about bacteria and so forth, and it was very, very interesting to me. 07:08 Lawrence And that's how I became interested. And at the time, the University of Guelph had a nationally recognized and internationally recognized program in microbiology. 07:19 Derek Mm-hmm. 07:20 Lawrence And so that's how I came to come to Guelph and become my— and begin my studies. 07:27 Derek So why food science specifically and not medicine or straight microbiology? 07:33 Lawrence So my undergraduate degree is in basic microbiology, and my mentor at the time said to me that she thought that I would make a great food microbiologist, and I didn't know what food science was. 07:52 Lawrence So she told me, go across the street to the food science building. 07:56 Lawrence She told me to talk with a professor, Professor Mansell Griffiths, who ultimately became my master's and PhD advisor. 08:04 Derek Wow. 08:05 Lawrence And so I did, and he accepted me into his lab, and the rest is history. 08:12 Lawrence Why not medical school? That was an early plan. However, my grades at the end of my undergraduate degree were not high enough, and so I decided to go into graduate school to improve my grades before 08:28 Lawrence applying to medical school. But upon entering graduate school, I really developed a passion for research, and so I decided to do my PhD and become a professor. 08:37 Derek That's really fortunate. Your postdoc put you in Michael Doyle's food safety lab in Georgia. 08:45 Derek What's one thing he taught you that you still use to this day? 08:49 Lawrence Well, one thing about Professor Doyle, he was extremely successful and very well known for his, his research projects, and the projects were very rigorous, and these scientific experiments were you 09:06 Lawrence know, quite complex. And so the one thing I remember about him was, you know, which he instilled in me, is to make sure that the research we do has integrity, is accurate. 09:21 Lawrence This is, you know, has always been important, but it's even more important today in science because we see so many fabricated scientific studies. 09:30 Derek Wow. 09:31 Lawrence a lot of misinformation, a lot of scientific papers being retracted, and so forth. 09:37 Lawrence So that's one thing that, that he instilled in me that I try to do every day. 09:43 Derek Wyoming, then Colorado State, then McGill's Munro Chair. What kept you moving between schools? 09:51 Lawrence So one of the things that kept me moving between schools, to be quite honest, is the fact that as a Black scientist, there are not the same opportunities that are afforded to other scientists from other, you know, communities. 10:09 Derek Backgrounds, yeah. 10:10 Lawrence And so for me, I often found that while I did well at every university, certainly in the US, I had to move and always try to take a step up to obtain the same opportunities that were given other scientists. 10:30 Derek Yeah. 10:30 Lawrence And so everywhere that I've tried to move, I've tried to take a step up, and over my career I've been able to do that. 10:39 Lawrence Leaving the US was a family decision because, you know, I'm from Canada. 10:46 Lawrence We want to return home to Canada to be near family. 10:50 Lawrence And so, you know, being able to move to McGill, which is of course a very well-respected and recognized international university, was a great opportunity for me. 11:04 Derek What finally brought you back to Guelph in 2019? 11:08 Lawrence Guelph's always been where my heart is. I did all my degrees, my undergraduate, my master's, and my PhD here. 11:16 Lawrence The university is world-renowned for its food science program. 11:20 Lawrence It's a top program in Canada, and it has the Canadian Research Institute for Food Safety. 11:26 Lawrence And so I was recruited back here to direct this institute and to return to the university and the area, Southern Ontario, that I love. So it was a no-brainer for me. 11:41 Derek Yeah. So you think you were naturally drawn towards coming back to Guelph? 11:45 Lawrence Yes, in fact, from the time I left, I always wanted to come back. It took approximately 16 years. 11:51 Derek Oh, wow. 11:52 Lawrence But that's a lesson I try and tell my students, which is perseverance. If at first you don't succeed, keep trying. Yeah. 11:59 Derek What is a foodborne pathogen really? And why does its dynamics matter? 12:06 Lawrence So foodborne pathogens are anything that, an organism that can be found in food which, if consumed, makes people sick. 12:17 Lawrence So there's several types of pathogens. They can be bacteria like E. coli or Salmonella. 12:26 Derek Mm-hmm. 12:27 Lawrence They can be parasites. For example, there's a recent outbreak in the United States going on right now with a parasite called Cyclospora that has been linked to consumption of lettuce. 12:40 Lawrence They can be viruses, so things like norovirus. You know, if you think about on cruise ships, when you hear about cruise ships and lots of people getting sick, that's typically norovirus, which can 12:52 Lawrence spread in food. And it can be molds, you know, so think of molds that we might find on bread, moldy bread, things like that. 13:03 Lawrence All those things, if consumed, can make people sick. 13:07 Lawrence So what I do with respect to studying foodborne pathogen dynamics is to try to understand what it is about these pathogens that make people sick as a first step to designing approaches to destroy them in foods or even people to reduce illness. 13:26 Derek You've advised the FAO and the World Bank on food safety. 13:31 Derek What does a food safety crisis look like in a country with far fewer resources than Canada? 13:37 Lawrence So that's a great question. You know, I often tell my kids and my students that Canada has among the safest food supplies in the world. 13:50 Lawrence Unfortunately, most of the world is not like that, especially low- and middle-income countries where there's lack of potable water, There's a lack of food safety standards. 14:00 Lawrence There's a lack of sanitation. There's a lack of surveillance. 14:04 Lawrence So it's even hard to know how many people are sick. 14:08 Lawrence And there's often a non-homogeneous distribution of healthcare. 14:14 Given Mm-hmm. 14:15 Lawrence And so because of that, many people die every year. 14:19 Lawrence Many people become sick and die every year. at least 1 in 10 people globally will become sick with a foodborne illness, and approximately 400,000 of those or so will die, with 150,000 being children under 5 years of age. 14:37 Derek Oh my goodness. 14:38 Lawrence And that doesn't include the systemic effects. Now, most people think about foodborne diseases as something that lasts 48 hours and then you get better, and in many cases that's true. 14:49 Lawrence But for children who, especially in low and middle income countries, who are repeatedly exposed to these toxins, that can lead to long-term systemic complications like stunting or malnutrition, which 15:02 Lawrence leads to serious problems in old— in, uh, as, as they become older. 15:07 Derek Yeah. 15:08 Lawrence And then for adults, we're increasingly understanding that there can be long-term complications even in adults. 15:16 Lawrence So for example, There was a large outbreak of E. coli in water in a town called Walkerton, Ontario in the year 2000. 15:26 Derek Mm-hmm. 15:27 Lawrence 2,500 people became sick because the chlorination supply was not working. 15:33 Derek Mm-hmm. 15:34 Lawrence And manure from cattle got into the water and people got sick. 15:39 Lawrence And 7 people died at the time. One of the people who got sick was a police officer. 15:45 Lawrence His name was Robbie Schnurrer. He was just driving through Walkerton. 15:49 Lawrence You know, Walkerton is a small town. It was a warm day. 15:52 Lawrence All he did, his only crime was to drink a glass of water. 15:56 Derek Wow. 15:56 Lawrence And he became sick and he never recovered. And by all accounts, this was a strapping man, over 6 feet tall and in excellent shape. 16:05 Lawrence He had nerve problems and then became bedridden and the symptoms never improved. 16:14 Lawrence So in the year 2018, he decided to end his life with a doctor-assisted death. 16:20 Lawrence Oh my God. So, you know, I tell these stories because people need to understand that these diseases are not just necessarily something that you recover from in 48 hours. 16:32 Lawrence There are people who die, there are people who have lifetime complications, and we really need to try to figure out how to reduce these if we want to keep Canada's food supply safe. 16:42 Lawrence But it's not just about Canada, you know, the world is interconnected. 16:46 Lawrence We import foods from all over the world. When people emigrate to Canada, they bring their foods, and then maybe those foods are combined with foods we already have here to produce new foods. 16:55 Derek Yeah. 16:55 Lawrence So not only do, do I feel a strong obligation to help the Canadian food supply remain safe, but I also feel that we have an obligation to work with those in countries that do not have the resources we have to improve their foods. 17:11 Derek What's a food safety myth you wish would just flat out die? 17:16 Lawrence Oh wow, that's a great question. There's so many. 17:22 Lawrence Hmm, let's see. What's a food safety myth I wish would just die? 17:28 Lawrence That you don't need to cook hamburgers. to well done. 17:35 Lawrence So, uh, so here's, here's some, here's some food safety education. 17:40 Derek Yeah, let's get into it. 17:41 Lawrence So it, you know, let's talk about beef. Okay, so we have steaks and then we have ground meat like hamburgers. 17:48 Lawrence So a steak, people can eat rare. The reason for that is because the bacteria is on the outside of the steak, and when you eat a steak or cook a steak to be rare, you singe the outside a little bit. 18:01 Lawrence That's enough to kill the bacteria on the outside. 18:03 Lawrence The bacteria can't get into the middle of the muscle. 18:05 Lawrence It's an intact piece of meat. A hamburger is completely different. 18:10 Lawrence We could take that hamburger and grind it up to make ground beef. 18:13 Derek Sure. 18:13 Lawrence And then that could be a hamburger. If we grind up that steak, the bacteria that's on the outside is now all the way in the middle. 18:20 Lawrence And so we really have to cook our hamburgers all the way through to make sure that they're safe. 18:28 Lawrence And in fact, every year during the summer when we have barbecues, we see people get sick because they haven't cooked their hamburgers well. 18:37 Lawrence So that's one of many food safety myths that I wish would just go away. 18:43 Derek Genomics and bioinformatics show up a lot in your work. 18:48 Derek How has DNA sequencing changed food safety science? since you started your PhD? 18:54 Lawrence I think genomics is one of the revolutions in food science, particularly as it applies to foodborne outbreaks. 19:01 Lawrence So when there's a foodborne outbreak, public health officials want to try to figure out what the contaminated food is so that they can remove it from grocery stores because people keep buying the 19:12 Lawrence food unknowingly and eating it, get sick, and more people get sick. 19:17 Lawrence Historically, before the age of genomics, it was virtually impossible to do this because in order to link a food to somebody who's sick, the person has to have tested positive for the pathogen, and then the food has to also have that pathogen. 19:42 Derek Yeah. 19:43 Lawrence But then the DNA fingerprints of each have to be very, very similar. 19:48 Lawrence And so we didn't have the technology to do that. And so because of that, you know, public health officials typically interview people. 19:56 Lawrence They remember what they ate. While we had, you know, some strong potential evidence, circumstantial evidence of what the food was, in many cases, like with a bacteria like Salmonella, which is found 20:09 Lawrence in virtually all foods, Yeah. You know, we couldn't find the source. 20:14 Lawrence And so people would continue to become sick until genomics was really ushered in. 20:20 Lawrence It gave us that precision to identify the DNA fingerprints of the bacteria from people and the bacteria from food, allowing us to definitively link the sources. 20:31 Lawrence So that has really decreased the amount of people in Canada and the USA and in Europe, places that have robust surveillance systems, that get sick. 20:41 Lawrence In places like low and middle income countries, that technology is just now emerging. 20:48 Lawrence So, so this again is something that interests me, and we actually work with, with researchers in low and middle income countries to teach them how to, to use genomics in food science so that 21:00 Lawrence hopefully illnesses in those countries can be reduced as well. 21:04 Derek Wonderful. 21:05 Lawrence What type of student is good for A student that is passionate and wants to learn. 21:13 Lawrence You know, food science is actually not a single discipline. 21:17 Lawrence It's actually a collection of disciplines. So there's microbiology, there's chemistry, there's physics, there's engineering, there's even behavioral science. 21:28 Lawrence You know, why do we like the foods that, you know, we like and foods that we don't like? 21:34 Derek Yeah. 21:34 Lawrence You know, earlier you and I were talking about some foods that we don't enjoy while others enjoy? 21:41 Lawrence Why is that? So that's sociology and behavioral science and sensory science. Does a food taste good or doesn't it taste good? 21:49 Derek Yeah. 21:50 Lawrence So if we think about diet foods, one of the problems with those foods, because you're taking out the things that make foods unhealthy, sugar, salt, fat, these are all foods These are all components 22:06 Lawrence that make foods taste good. So diet-based foods don't typically taste good. 22:11 Lawrence So, you know, sensory science is the art of— the science of trying to figure out— produce foods and trying to figure out why consumers may or may not like those foods to improve them. 22:23 Lawrence So these are all sub-disciplines in food science. Sub-branches, yeah. 22:28 Derek Yeah. 22:29 Lawrence So I like to say, as long as you're passionate and like to learn and like food, which most of us like, you can make a good food science student. 22:40 Derek Amazing, amazing. Well, we're gonna take a break and get into the second half in just a few minutes, so stay tuned for that. 23:47 Given Okay, and we're back with the second half. So, Dr. 23:50 Given Goodridge, I kind of wanted to circle back and touch on something that you were talking about before. 23:55 Given As a Black professional and Black scientist, what has your experience been in the many roles that you've taken on moving up? 24:04 Lawrence Well, you know, when I was in the university, there weren't many Black professors. 24:15 Given Yeah. 24:15 Lawrence So I didn't see many people who looked like me. 24:20 Given Yeah. 24:20 Lawrence And that was quite lonely. 24:24 Given Yeah. 24:26 Lawrence You know, when I struggled in my research, and every graduate student, you know, certainly if the project is robust enough, will likely struggle because we're trying to answer questions that nobody 24:42 Lawrence has ever really answered before. So when that happens, self-doubt can creep in. And it's nice to have somebody who— 24:55 Given Is there to kind of tell you— Is there to— 24:57 Lawrence exactly. 24:58 Given You're doing the right thing, yeah. 24:59 Lawrence So I didn't really have that. Now, interestingly, at the time, I didn't, I didn't know that I needed that. 25:08 Lawrence It's only upon looking back now that I've become very, very interested and involved in equity, diversity, and inclusion that I look back and say, wow, I wish that I had somebody, you know, like that, or somebody, it's not just a single person. 25:32 Given Right. 25:34 Lawrence So, you know, as I've moved forward in my career and I've become more aware of that, I've really found myself mentoring Black students. 25:45 Lawrence And to put this into context, you know, when I was in the US, in Colorado, for example, this was when I really first— 25:51 Given Saw the difference? 25:53 Lawrence Yeah, saw the difference, became aware of this. There were students who were in fields that I knew nothing about. 25:59 Lawrence Physics. chemistry, Black students who would come and talk to me. 26:03 Given Okay. 26:03 Lawrence Um, just because even at that time there were not many Black professors. There really still aren't, uh, many. 26:12 Given I'd say you're— how many do you know? How many around there are even in, in Guelph? 26:18 Lawrence So, um, I think in Guelph we're probably— and I can't tell you. 26:25 Given Yeah, like, of course not. 26:27 Lawrence But certainly in the science disciplines, like biology and related disciplines, you know, I think we have about 20 professors. 26:39 Lawrence The university recently— and by recently I mean, let's say, 5 years ago or so— had a Black and Indigenous hiring initiative to try to increase the number of Black and Indigenous faculty. 26:52 Given That's good. 26:54 Lawrence improve the situation, but it's still not enough. 26:57 Given Right. 26:58 Lawrence And so, you know, mentoring the students has become a passion of mine because, you know, from my experiences, I can tell you that Black students are just as, you know, passionate and capable as any 27:16 Lawrence other student, students from other groups. But historically, they haven't been given the opportunity or the support. When given those things, they excel. 27:26 Given Yeah. 27:26 Lawrence And it's very satisfying, you know, for me to see a student who's passed through my lab go on and have a successful career. 27:34 Given Awesome. Yeah, thank you. Now, in 2020, you helped found the Canadian Black Scientists Network. Walk us through that a little bit. 27:44 Lawrence So I wasn't a founding member, but I came on shortly thereafter. 27:48 Lawrence Yeah, at least, well, you're part of the beginning of the whole rumbling. 27:53 Lawrence Yeah, yeah. Um, it's a wonderful organization. Um, my, my colleague and good friend Maydan Andrade, yeah, um, was, was, was the, you know, the founder, who originally— and her is a— she's an 28:07 Lawrence accomplished, uh, professor now, a dean of science in her own right, and somebody who I view as a mentor to me. 28:13 Given Yes. 28:14 Lawrence Um, her passion really led to, you know, this organization which links scientists all across Canada. 28:26 Lawrence So at the time, you know, I'd returned to McGill University in 2013. 28:33 Lawrence I was not aware of all the wonderful science and accomplished Black scientists, whether they're professors in academia or working in within the government or in India that— or in industry, excuse me, that existed in Canada. 28:48 Given Yeah. 28:49 Lawrence What CVSN does is bring us all together. So it's a wonderful organization. 28:56 Lawrence It's inspiring. We also, you know, have students as part of the organization. 29:04 Lawrence So it's a great way for them to interact. It comes back to that mentoring and even though they might have professors who are not Black, knowing where there is a community of Black professors to turn 29:16 Lawrence to can be useful. One of the really cool things that we do that I really enjoy with CBSN is we have a youth arm. 29:25 Given Okay. 29:26 Lawrence And so this gets back to my comments earlier about working with elementary and high school students to introduce them to STEM. 29:37 Lawrence science, technology, engineering, medicine, and math. 29:40 Given Okay. 29:41 Lawrence Because what happens is that such efforts often begin at the undergraduate level in university, but by then it's too late. 29:50 Lawrence You know, many students have picked their majors and so forth. So trying to reach out before then is our goal. 29:59 Given That's really good. 30:00 Lawrence And so we do that through science fairs. And we've had so many of our students go on to the National Science Fair, the Canada-wide science fair, and do really well. 30:09 Lawrence And this again has, has reinforced what I know, which is that when given the opportunity, Black students can do very well, just as well as students from other groups. 30:21 Given Fantastic. What do you think is a barrier or the most important barrier that Black students will face when entering into STEM fields or, you know, trying to get into research that people don't necessarily think about? 30:36 Lawrence So I think there's several things. The first thing is a lack of knowledge of what's available. 30:40 Given Yes. 30:41 Lawrence So I myself, I didn't know what food science was. 30:44 Given Yeah. 30:44 Lawrence And it took a mentor who cared a lot about me to introduce me to it. 30:51 Lawrence So the first thing is not understanding what's out there. 30:54 Lawrence The second thing is, and this is a bit of an unfortunate one, is family pressure. 31:03 Lawrence You know, so families mean well, they want the best for their kids, but steering them into fields like my parents did with me, medicine or law or dentistry, excellent fields, but there's so many 31:16 Lawrence other things that people can do. Other things to do. 31:19 Given Yeah. 31:19 Lawrence So I think education of family, you know, with respect to these are other career opportunities. 31:28 Lawrence Science is an amazing field. There's so many inventions and discoveries by Black scientists that we don't hear about, unfortunately, because history has suppressed them. 31:39 Given Yes. 31:40 Lawrence So trying to get those stories out. And in physics, for example, in space, you know, the space race between the Soviet Union and the USA, and how the USA was able to catch up in large part because of 31:55 Lawrence the contributions of Black scientists. The Hidden Figures movie, for example. 31:59 Given Yes, right. Yeah. 32:01 Lawrence But in medicine and in engineering and in virtually any field, every field, there have been science— Black scientists have made major contributions. educating people about that so that— 32:18 Given Right. 32:18 Lawrence And then students so that they can think of themselves in fields that they may not have ever considered or even known about. 32:28 Lawrence And then the other challenge is that, you know, for many of us, we're still first-generation students in the university. 32:40 Lawrence And so not being prepared, you know, for the overall rigors of it. 32:47 Lawrence And just simply, it's not just about coursework, it's about the whole social situation of the university. 32:54 Lawrence You know, people who have gone to universities for— whose families have gone to universities for 3 and 4 generations, there's just a knowledge that's just passed down. 33:04 Given Yeah. 33:04 Lawrence It's not like somebody sits them down and tells them, it's just there and they just absorb it. 33:10 Lawrence First-generation families, many of whom are Black families, not all, but many, tend not to have that. 33:18 Lawrence And so this is where struggles can come in and again why mentorship is so important. 33:24 Given Yeah, that's very true. Now through the BeSTEM and the K2i Academy, you've mentored Black youth. 33:32 Given Is Is there a particular student or story that really sticks with you? 33:37 Lawrence Absolutely. 33:37 Given Yeah? 33:38 Lawrence So I love mentoring students, but I want to tell you a story about a student named Noah Bryan. 33:46 Given Okay. 33:47 Lawrence And I first met him when he was in grade— I think it was grade 9 or 10. 33:53 Given Okay, pretty early though. 33:54 Lawrence Yes, and he was very interested in doing research. 33:59 Lawrence So he came into my lab and he did science projects for 2 years in my lab. 34:07 Lawrence And, you know, we have a Canadian Black Scientists Network science fair. 34:11 Lawrence He did very well. He won the top prize at those, and that means that he was able to go to the Canada-wide science fair, the top science fair in Canada. And he won, I think it was over 20 awards. 34:23 Given What? 34:24 Lawrence Over the 2 years that he was there, including including some of the top overall awards. 34:33 Given Yeah. 34:34 Lawrence This and his many other talents. I mean, he's very smart, he's very driven, he's very passionate. 34:43 Lawrence He inspires me, which I think is the greatest compliment that a professor can give a student, is when the student actually inspires the professor to go on and do more. 34:54 Given Keep doing what you're doing. Yeah. 34:56 Lawrence So all this culminated in Noah accepting entry into Harvard. 35:02 Given Wow. 35:03 Lawrence Where he just completed his first year with a perfect 4.0 GPA. 35:09 Given Wow. 35:10 Lawrence He was winning numerous awards. 35:13 Given Yeah. 35:14 Lawrence And so because of that, I've continued to mentor. 35:17 Lawrence Now I'm mentoring his younger brother as well, and it's just been a very positive and uplifting experience. 35:26 Lawrence to see, you know, what he's done. And I have no doubt that he's the type of person— I have no doubt that in, you know, 10 or 15 years— 35:35 Given He's gonna be doing— 35:36 Lawrence Yes, he'll be doing amazing things and we'll be hearing about him. 35:40 Given That's amazing. Now, you've pointed out that even culture can kind of shape food safety risk and how we see those things. 35:50 Given Did your own background ever shape the way that you saw science or decided to approach it? 35:56 Lawrence That's a good question. I don't think so, you know, but culture, you know, is really important. 36:07 Lawrence You know, we are in this time now where people are questioning diversity. 36:13 Given Yes. 36:13 Lawrence Why do we need diversity? 36:15 Given Yeah. 36:15 Lawrence And, you know, I can use a food science example to answer that. 36:21 Given Okay. 36:24 Lawrence We have different cultures, and those different cultures have different foods. 36:30 Lawrence And some of those foods are safer than others, and some are not as safe. 36:36 Lawrence Okay, and so one example, for example, is soft milk foods. 36:42 Lawrence So these are like soft milk cheeses, Okay. And what we're talking about here is cheeses made with unpasteurized milk. 36:55 Given Got it. Okay. 36:56 Lawrence Raw milk cheeses. 36:58 Given Yeah. 36:59 Lawrence And so raw milk or unpasteurized milk is a health hazard because there's a reason why we pasteurize our milk to kill the pathogens that are there. 37:08 Lawrence So cultures that have those types of foods are at increased risk of foodborne illness. 37:19 Given Mm-hmm. 37:19 Lawrence So, you know, but one thing that we've learned, and this is where the behavioral science comes in, is that people from a given culture tend to trust people who look like them with respect to sharing 37:33 Lawrence information more than people from other cultures. 37:37 Lawrence So by this what I mean is if a white person were to come into the black community and talk to them about questionable food safety practices— 37:47 Given Why saltfish is so good for you. 37:48 Lawrence Yeah, so something like that. Or chitlins is okay. 37:56 Lawrence Black people may be less likely to listen to that than if a black person can come in who has been from that culture comes in. 38:06 Lawrence So that's right there why we need more diversity, but also to understand some of these foods. 38:12 Lawrence You know, somebody who's not a Black person may never have heard of chitlins. 38:16 Given That's true. 38:17 Lawrence Um, may not know, you know, what, what that is and the risks associated with that. 38:23 Lawrence Um, and, and so therefore could never you know, figure out ways to improve the safety of those products, or if they're combined with some other product. 38:36 Given Yeah. 38:36 Lawrence Whereas, you know, somebody who has grown up in that culture would be able to bring that knowledge. 38:41 Lawrence And so, you know, this is why diversity is important. 38:45 Lawrence Canadian Black Scientists Network, one of the things that we've been really involved in is a major project in Canada. 38:52 Lawrence It's related to precision medicine. And this is a major government-funded project where a number of projects actually are funded to increase the number of human genomes that have been sequenced. 39:07 Given Okay. I think I've heard of— yeah, I've heard of something like that. 39:10 Lawrence Yeah. And so why is that important? Well, because when we have that information, we can then determine genetic factors for disease. 39:20 Lawrence we can use that information to determine or develop better drugs. 39:24 Given Yes. 39:25 Lawrence Historically, Black people have not had their genome sequenced at the frequency of other groups. 39:31 Lawrence So what that means is we have often been not included in, or our information has not been included in development of drugs, for example. 39:44 Given Yes. 39:44 Lawrence So what that means is that And then further making the situation worse is that for clinical trials, we've often not been included in that as well. 39:55 Given Yes. 39:55 Lawrence So what that means in practical terms is that when there are side effects or deleterious effects from these drugs that occur only in Black people, that knowledge is not known. 40:06 Lawrence And so these drugs that, you know, have been developed that may be quite effective in other populations, sometimes are not as effective in the Black population and sometimes, you know, have horrible 40:21 Lawrence side effects. And in some cases, those side effects have been dismissed. 40:25 Given Yes. 40:25 Lawrence Because doctors say that's not a side effect that when we were developing the drug that we saw. 40:31 Lawrence So, you know, CBSN has helped to organize a project where the genomes of 100,000 Black people in Canada will be sequenced. 40:46 Lawrence And so that information will then be added to all the other genomes, and the goal is that, and the hope is that this will help improve the development of drugs for underrepresented populations such as the Black population. 41:00 Given Yeah, no, that's really, I even think about, that's kind of relevant to myself. 41:04 Given I was I struggle with like some skin stuff, for example. 41:08 Given And then when I'm looking for products and I try things that I find online, they are often not relevant to my skin. 41:17 Given So I'll get like hyperpigmentation or whatever. I never knew that that was supposed to happen, or even not understanding the benefits of like sunscreen for us. I always thought— 41:30 Lawrence Absolutely. 41:31 Given You know, I'm from Jamaica, so Why would I need sunscreen? 41:35 Lawrence You know? Absolutely. So these are all things, you know, that, um, you know, this is why we need diverse scientists. 41:43 Lawrence And yeah, not just Black scientists or white scientists, Indigenous scientists. 41:47 Lawrence You know, Indigenous peoples are another group that are vastly underrepresented and disenfranchised. 41:55 Lawrence And personally, I, I don't— I think we have to look at all of these groups and work together, not separately. 42:02 Lawrence So, so, you know, much of what I'm saying is, is directly applicable to that. 42:07 Lawrence And, you know, I try to work with, with my Indigenous colleagues to, uh, to improve the plight of Indigenous people as well. 42:14 Given That's awesome. Now, um, I kind of wanted to touch on something as well that's a bit more student-facing for the students who are wondering a little bit more about your career and in terms of if they 42:28 Given wanted to emulate or if they wanted to get involved in food science. 42:32 Given I know you said having curiosity about those things and loving science, those are important, but what are some— if you are a student who decides, you know what, I would really love to do food 42:43 Given science, what are some kind of practical steps that a student like that could take to start learning more or getting involved? Even from a microbiology standpoint as well? 42:55 Lawrence Yeah, those are great questions. So I think food science is an undergraduate degree, so students can come and apply to it right from high school. 43:06 Lawrence That's not the path I took. I took, you know, a microbiology degree and then came into food science, food microbiology that way. 43:16 Lawrence I think You know, so, you know, going into food science, I always tell students it's a great career. 43:24 Lawrence People will always eat, so there's always jobs. And, you know, a lot of students say, but what is food science? Is it chef school? 43:33 Given Yeah. 43:34 Lawrence And it's the science of making food, you know, and we use the results of food science every day. and we don't even understand it or realize it. 43:47 Given Yeah. 43:47 Lawrence So for example, when we're baking, you know, and we mix ingredients together and so forth, that's food science. 43:55 Lawrence There's chemical reactions going on in there, you know, and there's— it's just such a big part of our life that we don't even realize. 44:06 Lawrence So food science is a great undergraduate degree. And there's many jobs. 44:10 Lawrence And one of the things about it is because food science is not really a single discipline, it has physics and engineering and math and chemistry and biology, a student could actually do a food science 44:21 Lawrence degree and that actually prepares them to go off into any one number of different fields. 44:27 Given Yeah. 44:27 Lawrence So that's great. For students who are interested in graduate school, I think it's important to just have a A background in a basic science. 44:38 Lawrence It could be chemistry, it could be physics, it could be microbiology, something like that. 44:46 Lawrence And then if you're willing to learn and put in the hard work, you know, you can be very successful. 44:53 Given Are there any important skills that a student should try to equip themselves with in undergraduate? 45:00 Lawrence I don't think anything that's specific to food science. 45:04 Given Okay. 45:04 Lawrence But I will say certainly there are skills that students should equip themselves with. 45:09 Lawrence You know, we are in a society now where, you know, everything is short clips. 45:15 Given Yes. 45:16 Lawrence Even the way we communicate, texting, not full words, not full sentences. 45:22 Given Yeah. 45:22 Lawrence You know, science is all about communication. A scientist can make the greatest discovery ever known to humankind, If they can't communicate that, it may never be realized. 45:35 Derek Yeah. 45:35 Lawrence So I tell my students, you need to read and read and read some more. 45:41 Lawrence You obviously should be reading about your research project, but just read anything. 45:46 Given Yes. 45:48 Lawrence And everything. You know, the amount of times— I can't tell you the amount of times, you know, I work in food science, but I'm reading something about cancer. 45:56 Given Yeah. 45:56 Lawrence And it gives me an idea that I can actually apply back to my project. 46:03 Lawrence So reading about all things science, but even outside of science, you know, understanding the motivations of people, because that helps us then, you know, again, when it comes to, you know, 46:15 Lawrence explaining why perhaps this food may not be as safe as another food, but people are resistant to what you're saying. Right? We can— it helps us to understand that. 46:26 Given Yeah. 46:27 Lawrence And perhaps devise better ways to get through them. 46:29 Lawrence Right? So just read and try to communicate. Absorb it all in. 46:34 Lawrence Yes. Figure out how to explain your science or one's science to people who are not scientists, because that's another big challenge. 46:42 Given Right? 46:43 Lawrence So I can talk to a scientist and talk in scientific language, but try explaining that to a 3-year-old child. 46:50 Given Yeah. 46:50 Lawrence Right, or a member of the public who, you know, sitting on the bus— this happened to me many times, right? 46:55 Lawrence I'm sitting on a bus, the person next to me, what do you do? 46:58 Lawrence Well, you have to be able to explain it in a way that they can understand. 47:02 Lawrence If you can't explain to them in a way that they can understand, then, um, you know, all the great work that we do, um, may not be, uh, uh, really useful or accessible. 47:15 Given Yeah. 47:15 Lawrence And then at the end of the day, that's really the goal of this. 47:18 Given Awesome. Now, what do you want to be true about food science or even Black representation in food science or STEM in the next 10 years? 47:29 Lawrence I would like to see more Black scientists. Yeah, I would like to see that we are afforded the same opportunities as other scientists, so that includes things like in funded research projects. 47:45 Lawrence We know that consistently Black professors are not funded at the same levels as their white counterparts, even though the, the quality of the projects are the same. 47:57 Lawrence And when they are funded, it tends to be lesser amounts. 48:00 Given Yeah. 48:00 Lawrence Which means that we can't do as many experiments and so forth. 48:05 Lawrence These problems have been known for years. They have been verified by numerous sources. 48:10 Lawrence So we really need to work to produce that and improve that. 48:15 Lawrence I'd like to see more Black faculty at universities across the country in all disciplines so that, you know, kids today don't have to go through what I went through, which is not seeing someone who looks like them. 48:30 Given Yeah. 48:31 Lawrence You know, kids are, you know, often always looking for role models. 48:39 Given Yes. 48:39 Lawrence So if they see a scientist that looks like them, maybe they think, when I grow up, I want to be a scientist. 48:47 Lawrence Just like kids see athletes and they say, okay, well, you know, I want to be that. 48:52 Given Be that. 48:53 Lawrence Yeah, right. Um, we've just gone through the World Cup. 48:56 Given Exactly. 48:57 Lawrence Yeah, absolutely right. So many kids want to be like him or others. 49:02 Lawrence Well, same thing for science. Why can't we do that for science? 49:07 Lawrence So I would like to see those improvements in the numbers of scientists and also the numbers that are adequately funded in the next 10 years. 49:20 Given Awesome. And what's next for you? 49:23 Lawrence What's next for me? You know, I really want to grow. 49:28 Lawrence The mentorship that I'm doing with elementary and high school students. 49:35 Lawrence And one of the things I really want to do is develop mentorship opportunities for graduate students. 49:42 Lawrence So one of the things that students are not trained in is how to mentor people. 49:45 Given Yes. 49:46 Lawrence But if you really think about it, over the course of one's career, everybody will likely mentor somebody at That is very true. 49:56 Lawrence And you're just expected to know how to do that. How can you do that if you haven't been trained? 50:02 Lawrence So one of the things I really want to do is develop a mentorship program for graduate students, a formal program to teach them how to mentor. 50:11 Lawrence And then they can actually help mentor the elementary and high school students who are doing the science fairs. 50:18 Lawrence Like, they could actually help mentor them during their projects. 50:20 Lawrence So then the kids get something out of it. They have a mentor, you know, and students are usually quite passionate and, you know, involved. 50:31 Given They're fine with somebody who's a little more on their age range. 50:33 Lawrence Absolutely. So that's great. And then the graduate students get something out of it because they're interacting with these students and learning how to mentor. 50:42 Lawrence So that's something that I really want to begin working on. And trying to expand. 50:49 Given That's amazing. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Goodrich. 50:52 Given We've had an amazing interview. You're extremely accredited, so we're just— we're glad to be able to feature you and glad to have you on the episode. 51:00 Given That is it for today, and please make sure that you tune in to the next episode. 51:05 Given We appreciate your time, and we will catch you guys soon. 52:07 Given And that's a wrap on today's conversation with Dr. 52:09 Given Lawrence Goodridge. Thank you so much for sharing your journey through food safety science with us and for being so generous with your time. 52:17 Given If anything Dr. Goodridge talked about today resonated with you, he also mentors youth interested in this field. 52:23 Given So if that's something you're curious about, don't hesitate to reach out to him directly. 52:27 Given And if food science itself has your attention, the University of Guelph runs a fantastic program in this space. 52:33 Given If there's something you should take away from this episode, that is definitely it. 52:36 Given Thank you. 52:37 Given It's genuinely one of the best places in the country to explore this kind of work, and we were thrilled to be on campus filming with him that day. 52:45 Given Definitely worth looking into if this episode sparked something for you. 52:48 Given That's it for this one though. Thanks for watching, and we'll catch you next time on So You Studied Bio. 52:54 Given Bye!
