Phil Demers traces the unconventional path that took him from multimedia post-production into marine mammal training, and ultimately into whistleblowing and animal welfare advocacy. He reflects on his bond with Smooshi the walrus, the realities he witnessed behind the scenes at Marineland, and how firsthand experience, public pressure, media, and persistence shaped his work with Urgent Seas.
Quick Note: This episode contains explicit language and frank, unfiltered conversation, including some mature themes. Viewer discretion is advised.
Transcript click a line to jump the video Hide Transcript▴ 00:00 Given Before we start, a quick note. This episode contains explicit language and frank, unfiltered conversation, including some mature themes. 00:09 Given We believe in letting our guests speak candidly and in their own voice. Thanks for tuning in and enjoy the conversation. 00:22 Given It's a beautiful day today, eh? 00:25 Derek Yeah, it really is beautiful today, man. 00:27 Given How many fish have we got so far? 00:29 Derek Oh, let me go check. 00:36 Derek We got 7 so far. 00:38 Given 7? Yeah. We're doing pretty good. 00:41 Derek Really beautiful day, right? 00:42 Given Yeah. 00:44 Phil Hey, what are you guys doing? 00:47 Given I'm in danger. Oh yeah, we're, we're, we're just fishing today. Yeah, we caught like 7 or so. 00:54 Phil This is my dock. This is my property. I pay insurance for this, and don't make me tell you guys. 00:59 Given You guys know. 01:02 Phil Let's go have a talk, boys. I want to talk to you about some fish. 01:09 Derek Hello everybody and welcome back to the So You Study Bio podcast. 01:12 Derek And today we're joined here by Mr. Demers. So welcome to the podcast, sir. 01:18 Phil Good to meet you. Thanks, uh, thanks for having me. 01:20 Derek So today we're going to speak about your marine biology, uh, insights and more about your whistleblowing. 01:30 Derek So, um, our first question is, if somebody Googles you right now, the first thing they'll find is either a walrus whisperer or a press release calling you unqualified. 01:44 Derek Which version of the story is more true to you, do you think? 01:50 Phil Uh, well, the disdain Marineland has for me is very real and genuine. 01:56 Phil Unfortunately, they regarded me as one of their best employees for the longest time. 02:00 Phil I was certainly qualified enough for the 12 years that I was there, you know, to make assessments as per be it animal welfare or water quality and other aspects of the job. 02:14 Phil But certainly it was true that I became a whistleblower. 02:16 Derek Mm-hmm. 02:17 Phil But by way of qualification, you know, in this, especially in the context that Marina would like to have used it, Everybody's an expert when you're assessing whether or not an animal is in pain or 02:30 Phil not. That's not— the threshold's not terribly— the bar's not too high to have to try to figure that one out. So I'll lean towards the whistleblower side. 02:46 Derek So you spent your whole adult life around marine animals without ever sitting down in a university biology class. 02:54 Derek Does that matter in the work he did, and what do you do now? 02:57 Phil So oddly, when I first applied for to be— and the job was a marine mammal trainer's assistant, was how I started out. 03:10 Phil I thought I was entirely underqualified. It wasn't until I actually called Marineland and spoke with someone at HR who said, there's a big turnover rate, And we like people from, you know, with all 03:22 Phil types of backgrounds. So we get people with biology degrees, we get people with psychology degrees, and we also like people, dot, dot, dot. 03:29 Phil And what I had studied in school was basically music. 03:34 Derek Mm-hmm. 03:34 Phil And music and music editing, but essentially it was called multimedia post-production. 03:39 Phil But that's what I had studied at the time. And so Marineland, when they saw my resume, and also the fact that I was a scuba diver at a young age, They thought, well, here's a guy that could work on 03:48 Phil the music and aspects of the show and then care for the animals as well. 03:52 Phil So even when I had applied at Marineland, I thought more over, or more so, I'd be working in the show capacity, working in audio and visual type of stuff. 04:01 Derek On the technical side. 04:01 Phil Right. But when they offered me, you know, when they asked me what size boot do I wear so I can start feeding the whales, I mean, I was ecstatic, but I thought I was certainly over my head. 04:11 Phil But it didn't really matter at the end of the day when the job, when it came to doing the job, Anyone could have done the job that they were expecting of us, certainly. 04:21 Phil But, yeah, that one, that's my journey into becoming a marine mammal trainer. It was certainly different than most. 04:30 Derek So, walk us through your first few months. What did training actually look like before you knew what you were actually doing? 04:37 Phil So, all the training and all the learning that we did was in-house at Marineland. 04:41 Phil So, I'll give them or at least some of the individuals that worked there, the benefit that they tried to teach us well, at least in the beginning before things started to fall apart over there. 04:52 Phil So I was trained by other trainers who had learnt, but they were learning a new form of animal training, which was the positive reinforcement using sort of conditioning, etc. 05:07 Phil And so there was, you know, the way that we applied it and the way that we learnt it was pretty good. 05:12 Phil So I thought there was a wealth of knowledge there, not always applied, especially with some of the senior trainers, because many of them were also trained in an old-school way, which was, you know, 05:21 Phil they used abuse and they used starvation methods, and they still do to this day. 05:26 Phil They just sort of give it a different term. They sort of soften how it is that they describe it. 05:32 Phil But yeah, so when I started out, I really didn't know what I was doing. 05:36 Phil I sort of tried to stay in the background, scrub buckets. 05:40 Phil sort of learned through via osmosis or, you know, sort of attach myself at the hip of who the person I thought was most competent. 05:46 Phil But with the classes and the sort of applied training, you know, more than not, I sort of excelled and got a grasp of it, of the job, really well. 05:56 Phil At the end of the day, for me, the greatest benefit is my ability to, and my rather rapport with the animals. 06:03 Derek Mm-hmm. 06:04 Phil I've always been an animal person. I just have a I just like to establish a relationship where there's a greater level of communication. 06:16 Phil And so I try to break those barriers down a little bit, and people call me anthropomorphic for it. 06:21 Phil I don't care. I have way more fun communicating with animals than trying to determine just how effective it is because, I mean, the effectiveness of how I operated was sort of sort of became a thing 06:34 Phil of global headlines eventually. So, you know, certainly onto something, wanting to get, uh, wanting to get close to the animals and have a clear, effective communication with them. 06:44 Phil But, you know, there was training in-house, and that's how we learned. 06:47 Phil But on my first day, I should stress, I wanted to quit because, you know, once you went backstage for the very first time, before you were sort of satiated, or rather accustomed to it, it was not 06:59 Phil pretty to see. But I didn't know because I didn't have a background in biology or any type of schooling, and I'd never gone to school with this. 07:06 Phil I was already sort of overwhelmed. I just assumed, well, these people know what they're doing and they don't seem to be too bothered with what's going on. 07:12 Phil So, I have to assume that with them knowing what they know and they're the teachers, I'm here to learn. 07:18 Phil So, I had to put aside a lot of things that I thought at the time were immediately wrong that were in fact wrong. 07:25 Derek Yeah. 07:26 Phil But you just become accustomed to it because it's part of the job. It's just sort of part of it all. 07:32 Derek Yeah. 07:33 Phil But yeah, I'm gonna rant a lot and go all over the place, so get used to that. 07:39 Phil Either you're gonna do a lot of editing or you have a lot of people walking out of these interviews at some point. The Phil fatigue gets real. 07:46 Derek It's okay. So tell us about Smooshy arriving, an 18-month-old Orphaned walrus calf. 07:53 Derek What does a walrus that age actually need physically and behaviorally? 08:00 Phil So she was wild-caught in Russia and eventually flown in. 08:04 Phil At the time, we were getting multiple shipments of walruses, which was altogether new at Marineland. 08:08 Phil They'd not had walruses before, but she wasn't our first shipment. 08:12 Phil She was among— she was maybe the 3rd or 4th. Walruses at that point need their parents. 08:18 Phil They need their mothers more than anything. But void of that, you know, they needed formula, 24-hour care, they needed warmth, certain types of temperatures, UV rays would be optimal, but it weren't 08:29 Phil things we could offer, or rather that Marine Life would ever care to spend. 08:33 Phil But so they sort of need optimum natural conditions. 08:38 Phil We offered the opposite of that, and that's why every single walrus died except for Smooshy. 08:46 Phil And that's why if you, you know, when you roll back the story and you see that I become a whistleblower, and in the very first instance of my ever speaking to the public, I say, you know, I gotta get 08:55 Phil this walrus out. And this is in 2011 or 2012. And, you know, that turned into sort of a wild and crazy journey, but that was exactly because I knew I was in a race against the clock. 09:12 Phil Given just how deteriorating the conditions were and knowing that, you know, these walruses have needs that Marineland could not meet, we had to get her out. 09:20 Phil And that basically is the plot to the rest of what was my life up until now. 09:26 Phil And in case you guys didn't know, did you see that Smooshy had a baby? 09:30 Phil I didn't know that. It's all over the news today. 09:32 Phil I mean, I broke the news a few days ago, and I think SeaWorld might have been a little disappointed with that, but now it's in the news. 09:39 Phil Now it's in the news. But she's doing, she's doing exceptionally well. 09:42 Phil She looks really good. I've seen some of the footage of her training. 09:47 Phil The training that they've done with her and the way that they operate with the other walruses is beyond anything I would have even imagined possible when I was training walruses. 09:55 Derek Hmm. 09:55 Phil Like, they have blown my mind with the, with how they stimulate these animals' minds, etc. 10:00 Phil And also, Swooshy had a health issue that I had to deal with that I thought would probably kill her, and they seem to have a real good grip of it. 10:08 Phil So, you know, when I see images of her and how well she's doing, it makes all of the craziness of that place— by the way, when I go like this, Marineland's right there. 10:16 Phil You can see the drop tower between the trees. I mean, you might have to stand a little bit on the hill, but it's right there. 10:21 Derek Wow. 10:22 Phil So, I mean, I watch the sunset over Marineland, you know, literally every night. 10:26 Phil But, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's all the reward in the world. 10:30 Phil Like, the impossible dream happened. Imagine dreaming the impossible and then living it. 10:35 Phil That's currently me in this current moment. Pretty exciting. 10:39 Derek So how long have you been interacting with marine animals? 10:42 Derek Because you talked about how even for a long time you've loved working with animals. 10:46 Phil So marine animals, no. I mean, I might have as a kid gone to EPCOT Center or Disney Kingdom and touched the dolphin. 10:57 Phil I can't really remember. But, you know, I had a fascination for them, but I was nowhere near marine mammals. 11:01 Phil I mean, the closest— I mean, I always lived near water, But, you know, the closest thing to marine life I ever got to was largemouth bass. 11:07 Phil So, uh, but, you know, you see I'm always near water. 11:10 Phil My last name is, in French, it's Demers, which is of the sea when translated. 11:15 Phil So I've just, uh, I've, I always feel my best near water. 11:20 Phil Sometimes I'll stand by the ocean. I feel as though when the tide comes in, it continues to go through me. 11:24 Phil Like, there's just something more to the ocean than people give credit for. 11:28 Derek It's beautiful. 11:28 Phil And the things that it does for us. Yeah. But interacting with animals every day of my life. 11:35 Phil But whales and dolphins, no, that started in 2000. 11:40 Phil And then I would not have interacted with them now for a long time. 11:44 Phil But I'm in the news regarding them all the time. So that's pretty fun too. 11:51 Derek So 12 years is a long time. What was the moment, not the dramatic public version, but the actual private moment where you decided you couldn't keep doing the job. 12:04 Phil So, I was sitting, I've told this story before because it's just, that's the pinpoint of when it happened. 12:10 Phil But I'd walked in one morning and, you know, we'd had already our issues with, you know, the owner hyperchlorinating the water overnight, you know, in lieu of fixing this, you know, this expensive 12:22 Phil water disinfection unit. And I was getting pretty exhausted at the fact that these animals were suffering, in many cases, irreparable damage, in some cases even death. 12:31 Phil And no one was really doing anything about it. And I walked in one morning and I just smelt the pungence of that chlorine. 12:39 Phil And it was one of the more powerful times that I'd ever smelt it. 12:42 Phil So I knew whatever I was gonna see when I went backstage was gonna be really grim. 12:46 Derek Terrible. 12:46 Phil And when I walked in, my supervisor looked at me with a look like, basically, reassuring me that for sure you're gonna see something, or rather assuring me that, yeah, you're right, it's gonna be 12:59 Phil awful. And I just looked at him and said, how long are we gonna do this? 13:02 Phil And he said, you know what I like about you, Philly? 13:06 Phil We keep throwing shit at you and you keep taking it. And that's when I said, I fucking quit. 13:13 Derek Mm-hmm. 13:14 Phil And that was it. That was my moment. So there's no other more powerful moment in my heart And so, I mean, the decision might have been made longer unbeknownst to me. 13:24 Phil I might not have known, but in that moment right there, there was absolutely zero chance that I was going to continue to work there. And so, yeah, that's when that ended. 13:35 Derek So describe an average day as an advocate after becoming a whistleblower. What is your fight like now? 13:42 Phil Well, these days I'm fielding a lot of video footage from other whistleblowers. 13:47 Phil I started an organization called Urgencies, and the premise is to protect whistleblowers and people like myself. 13:54 Phil Basically a place that I didn't have in 2012 when I wanted to be a whistleblower because— Yeah, it creates an environment for them. 14:01 Phil I had to stick my neck out and use my face, my name, and get sued for millions of dollars. 14:06 Phil I've now been sued not just here in Marineland, I got sued in Miami for some advocacy work I did there. 14:13 Phil They use these lawsuits and it's never really fun, but there are ways to weaponize it to make it a big mistake for them. 14:21 Phil And Marineland's dust and Miami Seaquarium's dust now too. 14:25 Phil So it's certainly effective. But I started Urgent Seas so that it gave people a landing spot. 14:31 Phil I've got connections to government. I got connections to obviously lawyers and media. 14:38 Derek Mm-hmm. 14:38 Phil And frankly, at this point, we broadcast more effectively than most media anyways. 14:44 Phil And so these days I just sort of do the advocacy for others and try to amplify voices and put the spotlight on places, trying to continue to advocate for more laws. 14:56 Derek Mm-hmm. 14:57 Phil So in a lot of places I'll do testimonies. Today I'm doing a podcast. 15:01 Phil Very often I do podcasts. I've got another one that I've gotta schedule a little later on. 15:05 Phil Tomorrow I'm gonna do a photo shoot, which is fun. 15:07 Derek That's amazing. 15:07 Phil I've never done that before, but that's an interesting one. 15:10 Phil But, you know, it sort of becomes of life when you become effective at what you do. 15:15 Phil And, you know, I was blessed with eventually over time becoming very effective at what I do. 15:21 Phil So, and every day it's an evolution because if you want to continue to be effective, you have to be able to adapt. 15:30 Phil And, you know, the times are changing, people are a little bit more complacent. 15:33 Phil People have very short attention spans. So, you know, you have to sort of change the way you message. 15:39 Phil There were times when, you know, you would go on a podcast such as Joe Rogan's for 2 hours and speak, and people would listen to your every word. 15:48 Phil And now you can get your message across in a 12-second reel if done properly. 15:54 Phil And, you know, if you know how to play with the algorithm. 15:56 Phil So these days, My work is done on the internet through a phone. 16:03 Phil Unless I have to show up somewhere, and that's when you know you're in trouble. 16:09 Derek Could you consider yourself a broader biology activist now? 16:17 Phil No, I would be a hypocrite in too many ways if I were to try to purport myself as a purist of any sort. 16:26 Phil I don't know enough. I also, you know, I probably use too much toilet paper and I, you know, I take too many showers. 16:38 Phil You know, I'm just, I'm not the poster boy for all activism. 16:48 Derek Mm-hmm. 16:48 Phil I, you know, very often I'm attributed Or rather, the animal rights world is attributed to what I did. 16:54 Phil But bear in mind that while there was a lot of— much of it was surrounding the issues of animal rights, this was about survival for me. 17:02 Phil I got sued for millions of dollars. My girlfriend got sued for millions of dollars. 17:05 Phil They tried to destroy our lives. And then the walrus, of course, and all of this was first and foremost, but it became a lot more than just that very fast. 17:13 Derek Yeah. 17:14 Phil Once all of that happens. Like, when someone tries to take the food out of your mouth, tries to take the food out of your family's mouth, start to threaten violence against you, showing— having, you 17:21 Phil know, literal goons showing up on your driveway at all hours of the morning with, uh, with, with implicitly, uh, clear, uh, threats. 17:32 Phil And, uh, you know, it just became more than that. 17:35 Phil So I think very often I'm misrepresented in certain parts of the world where, hey, you know, can you sit— Oh, look behind you. They seem to trust us around here. 17:46 Derek They want to get on the podcast too. 17:48 Phil Yeah, yeah, well, they can. You're welcome here. Uh, but yeah, so, but, but in all of that, you know, you saw the recycle boxes out front. 17:56 Phil I try to recycle, but, you know, I, I just don't, uh, I don't want to, I don't want to be a voice in places where I, I am not exactly familiar or I can't represent myself in a, in a, in an 18:08 Phil expert-like fashion. I can speak to my experiences at Marineland. 18:11 Phil I can certainly speak to conditions at other facilities and in all aspects of it. 18:16 Phil And I can speak in places where there's, I can be witness with legislation and I articulate myself well, this and that. 18:27 Phil But, and I love to stare over the end of the dock at things, but you guys are doing the studying and everything else for the brighter future. 18:36 Phil I'm a semi-professional shit disturber. If there's a place where I can stir the pot, that affects biology, then let's go. 18:44 Phil But I don't even, I don't really know what that means. 18:48 Phil Let me ask you, define a biology activist. What does it necessarily mean? 18:55 Derek I would say it's somebody who, they care much about the environment. 19:00 Phil Yeah, that's just about it. Yes, I'm that, of course I do. But I'm not the poster boy for it. Okay. 19:07 Derek That's fair. That's very fair. 19:09 Phil I hate to be so honest sometimes because I should be like, oh yeah, of course I do this, this, this. 19:12 Phil It's like, do you? I drive a pretty big truck and it's only me in it all the time. 19:16 Phil It's hard to like— yeah, I'm not the best guy for it. 19:21 Phil So I leave that for other people. I do my best. I can do better. 19:26 Derek So Marineland's 2015 statement said you have no educational qualifications that qualify you in any way. 19:33 Derek to comment on the health or welfare of any animals. 19:37 Derek What's the strongest comeback that you have to that? 19:41 Phil Videos, pictures, other people that were educated in the exact ways that Marineland said that I wasn't, as the exact— or rather, being whistleblowers in the same context. 19:55 Phil You gotta bear in mind, I might have been regarded as the loudest voice eventually over time, but this is because there was a fantastical dramatic story with my walrus to attach to it. 20:06 Phil But I wasn't alone. There was a dozen of us, and there were plenty of people with all the education needed. 20:11 Phil But Marineland had to attack me, right? So what do they want to highlight? 20:14 Phil Well, Phil likes, uh, I mean, they— I mean, forget about it. 20:18 Phil They said all the things in the world about me. But, uh, no, my comeback is, uh, cameras and videos don't lie, and neither do full groups of people. 20:30 Derek If you had to explain to a first-year biology student what a marine mammal trainer actually does on a day-to-day basis, what type of skill and showmanship would they need? 20:49 Phil So, let's describe the day. So, you'll show up in the morning, and the first person in is going to start thawing fish. 20:56 Phil So, you know, it's less glamorous than working in the back of a kitchen, I can assure you that. 21:02 Phil And certainly more demanding. So, you know, it's a physical job. 21:05 Derek Mm-hmm. 21:06 Phil So, you know, you're gonna be on your feet all day. 21:10 Phil But yeah, it's scrubbing buckets, it's draining sinks and taking the fish out of these sinks and weighing the buckets and putting, you know, medication in the fish. 21:24 Phil I mean, organizational skills go a long ways because, uh, you know, you're, you're juggling a lot of things and you're, you're moving a lot. 21:31 Phil And so I want to stress patience and endurance. I'm just not sure what that looks like when you talk about, you know, qualifications or, or what, what type of traits that someone would have. 21:41 Phil I guess, like, I would call it, uh, ambition, that you got to be an ambitious person because you're starting at the bottom and the bottom is a long journey to the eventual middle. 21:53 Phil There's no top in that world. You know, there's nothing, you know, if that's, that's, that's a, that's a career best short-lived. Get what you can out of it, get the hell out. 22:04 Derek Mm-hmm. 22:05 Phil So I would say ambition and, and conviction. You gotta know where the hell you're going. 22:15 Phil If you're lost like I was in a place like that, ooh, it's gonna chew you up and spit you out because What the hell do you do after? 22:21 Derek Mm-hmm. 22:21 Phil And this is what I've challenged the trainers who stayed there is a lot of them protected Marineland for a long time and when they could have done the right thing. 22:30 Phil And now Marineland's shipping their jobs out. And now what are they gonna do? 22:34 Phil You know, what is— where do you go from there? I was lucky enough to get out and, you know, I was— I mean, I made some bold moves. 22:42 Phil And so that with that, sometimes there's a benefit. 22:45 Phil And today I'm certainly grateful that I made those moves, but I'd hate to be someone leaving there in the next month looking for what the hell's next if they haven't got a dream. 22:56 Phil So I would say someone with vision that wants to get in, get what they can out of it, and get the hell out. So I don't know, call that what it is. 23:07 Derek What does success look like for agencies operationally? 23:11 Derek Is it lawsuits, public pressure, legislation, or something else? 23:17 Phil I pride myself on being effective. I don't like taking on campaigns that are futile or that we know we can't be effective at. 23:27 Phil And with that, it means, you know, we have to always assume a greater level of risk than all other organizations. 23:35 Phil That's where we stand out. Urgencies has had the, and myself personally, I've leveraged lawsuits to get animals moved. 23:43 Phil I've leveraged public pressure to have animals moved. 23:47 Phil In Miami, we had Romeo the manatee removed. I mean, that was on TMZ. 23:53 Phil I mean, we were all over the place on that one. That took a lot, but we got it done. 23:58 Phil We had a lot of animals removed, but I've weaponized the abuse to use to destroy the facility. 24:08 Phil So if I get an edge, which is some evidence, and the evidence we got, for instance, example, in Mexico, we got whistleblower footage of a dolphin that jumped and cracked its neck on the ground, died, 24:23 Phil and, you know, it was buried. The resort tried to bury the footage and et cetera, et cetera. We got it. 24:28 Derek Correct. 24:28 Phil And that footage, that place got shut down. And not only that, and I'm not gonna attribute this incident as being the entirety of it, but at the time there'd been legislation being considered to ban 24:39 Phil the use for entertainment and dolphins and breeding, et cetera, in Mexico. 24:42 Phil And it passed with all of that momentum and those facilities went belly up. 24:47 Phil So, you know, that was public pressure. And, you know, there's a way of weaponizing public pressure and then embarrassing politicians, embarrassing, you know, amplifying those voices. 24:57 Phil And those are voters. Politicians don't like to be embarrassed. 25:01 Phil And then just targeting the facility relentlessly. 25:04 Phil I would say that our most effective weapon is that we've learned to weaponize the abuse. 25:14 Phil There used to be a time when people got away with things. 25:17 Phil We found a way to make sure they don't. So, you know, if we take on a campaign, we don't end it until that place is dust. 25:25 Derek You exposed Gulf World in Florida using drone footage, and the facility's parent company filed for bankruptcy weeks later. 25:32 Derek Walk us through how that investigation actually came together. What's the process from tip to public release? 25:41 Phil So we had gotten tips from whistleblowers that dolphins had been passing away. 25:46 Phil One dolphin had passed away by jumping and landing in shallow water and cracking its neck. 25:51 Phil because of the murkiness of the water. Well, it becomes a question of capturing something like that. 25:58 Phil So we didn't manage to capture that, but what we did manage to capture is the declining population of dolphins. 26:04 Phil So we were able to alert, hey, another dead dolphin, hey, another dead dolphin, hey, another dead dolphin, when the authorities weren't being alerted and, you know, things were trying to be kept 26:10 Phil quiet. This was at a time when I'd already been dealing with the Dolphin Company in a lot of ways because they also owned the Miami Seaquarium, which is the is the outfit that ultimately sued me for 26:23 Phil exposing the horrible captivity of Lolita the orca, who would eventually pass away as we expected in the worst possible conditions despite government, including the government of Miami and NGOs, 26:36 Phil organizations that you wanted to trust, all saying, oh no, she's in great health and the water's great. 26:40 Phil But they couldn't get any footage of her. So we flew drones, boom, as soon as they sued me, we rented a helicopter, went right above them. 26:46 Derek Yeah. 26:46 Phil And that helicopter, they got sued as well. But here we are. 26:49 Phil But, you know, we paid for their legal bills as we would. 26:53 Phil But yeah, so it's a question of— because we'd already had momentum and there was, you know, there was a lot of pressure on the Dolphin Company. 27:00 Phil Exposing Golf World immediately after Miami Seaquarium was just a one-two punch. They were not gonna survive. 27:05 Derek Mm-hmm. 27:06 Phil And, you know, we nailed it. We got it right. You start off with local media and then it grows to national media and then it turns, you know, the headlines go global. 27:12 Phil You make sure you're I say make sure you're viral, but once you become familiar with an algorithm and sort of how to make a video, it's impossible not to get a lot of views, I would say, if you're 27:24 Phil effective at it. Very often you can get a lot of views, and those views very often turn into licensing opportunities. 27:32 Phil You'll get some of these media companies come in and say, hey, we like your viral video. 27:37 Phil We'd like to include it in our news. We say, sure. 27:39 Phil It turns into a news article. You get your quotes out there. 27:41 Phil Then what happens is journalists pick that up. They start calling the facility asking for answers. 27:46 Phil The facility doesn't have the answers. You hopefully catch 'em by surprise. 27:49 Phil That in and of itself is an answer. The public doesn't like it. 27:52 Phil Then there's a protest. You show up at the protest. 27:55 Phil You be a loud voice. You with the bullhorn, maybe even 2. 27:58 Phil You know, you gotta do this stuff because you gotta, A, you gotta make the community excited. 28:03 Phil And someone's gotta step out and stick their neck out because if you don't, then what happens is there's no momentum to grab. You know, it just fizzles. 28:10 Derek Mm-hmm. 28:11 Phil Show them a leader. So, you know, get someone representing there and that's it. 28:16 Phil Keep the momentum going. And at some point, you know, something's got to give. 28:22 Phil And, you know, thankfully Golf World was shut down and those animals were all removed. 28:29 Derek That's amazing. Has the eventual outcome, the park closing, the animals leaving as well, changed how people who doubted you in 2015 talk about you now? 28:40 Phil No, no, it's, uh, it's curious because, uh, and, and I can, and I can say that I've lived it. 28:48 Phil There's a saying that says the, the, or the life of a hero goes so long until you become the villain. 28:55 Derek Okay. 28:55 Phil And that is true. And I get it now, and I can see it in a lot of public figures that get a lot of hate when they really, they shouldn't. 29:02 Phil But 2026 is the year Marineland is the victim, oddly. 29:06 Phil And now everyone's like, the reason the whales are dying is 'cause you starved off their profits and it's your fault. 29:15 Phil And now the animals aren't better off. It's like, hey, people have a really short attention span. 29:19 Phil So the problem is a lot of people back in 2012 who may have doubted Marineland or anything back then, well, they've certainly, they were witness to it long enough that they know. 29:32 Phil But if you're only coming around now, you only get the nostalgia. 29:36 Phil Oh, I miss this. And these were the good old days. 29:38 Phil It's like, you know, people have real selective memory. 29:41 Phil They forget that the bulk of the whales died between 2020 and 2022. 29:46 Phil And had we not banned the whale breeding, there'd be another 35 either dead or live ones at Marineland. 29:53 Phil You know, it's— But it is what it is. I kind of like the hate. 30:00 Phil It's the weirdest thing, but I've always been a shit disturber. 30:03 Phil I don't care what side of it it is. You know, in hockey there's a 4th line. 30:07 Phil I was always on the 4th line. I was the one that went out there and got his teeth knocked out, but did it with a smile, whatever was left of the smile. 30:14 Phil And that hasn't changed. So if, you know, Marineland hated me, and how did that end for them? So I kind of love it. 30:21 Derek Yeah. 30:22 Phil It's a weird one, but it is the reality. Yeah, I know. 30:24 Phil You know, it's no different than you take a look at a guy like David Suzuki. 30:27 Phil People wanna shit on him all the freaking time. What are you talking about? 30:29 Phil You know what I mean? But it's just what it becomes. 30:31 Phil So it's not a question of doubt. It's just a question of people eventually get sick of seeing your name in the papers, in the news, and then they eventually elect you to some form of government. 30:40 Phil So maybe I'll weaponize that and go run for city council. I don't know. 30:46 Derek Marineland's belugas are being split between facilities in Spain and the US right now. 30:51 Derek As someone who's watched this park for 25 years, what do you think this ending actually feels like? Relief, grief, or both things? 31:02 Phil It's definitely both. It's a weird one because I couldn't have imagined— first off, I didn't imagine Marineland was ever going to be actually shut down. 31:10 Phil I mean, there was a level of belief in me that there would be ramifications and they were going to ultimately have to make difficult decisions, but the way that it ended is not something I would have 31:22 Phil imagined in 2012. Now granted, I had the bravado to maybe think it, but it's not— wasn't really what I— it wasn't really my goal. 31:31 Phil It only became that when Maryland started to fight back, fight back, fight back, and then I stay, you know, lying and the suing and all this stuff. 31:38 Phil It became, okay, these guys have to be absolutely destroyed. 31:43 Phil But there's not a lot There's not the satisfaction you would assume, and I would call it similar to what people are experiencing in the nostalgia of 2026. 31:50 Phil I have a nostalgia. I have a nostalgia for the good times. 31:55 Phil Mm-hmm. I have a nostalgia for being that close and being sort of, you know, special to the animals in that I had the access and stuff. 32:06 Phil There was something special to that, selfish as that may be. 32:12 Phil But I also miss the fight. I miss that there was a greater satisfaction in a lot of the smaller wins than the big one. 32:22 Phil So I'm supposed to, you know, in a month's time, all the animals will be gone, which is a relief. 32:28 Phil You know, that's gonna alleviate a lot of the suffering of the animals. 32:33 Derek Yeah. 32:33 Phil It's not ideal, but it is example of what becomes. 32:36 Phil And you need to make example of places that are awful. 32:39 Phil And that's a place that was awful. let those other facilities know you got to be better or this is what's going to happen to you. 32:45 Phil So we're effective on that front and it needs to continue. 32:49 Phil And a lot of those animals are going to be put in places that, you know, ultimately not the best outcome is going to be for them. 32:55 Phil But, you know, the fight has to continue. It has to continue to follow them wherever they go. 33:01 Phil My thoughts and hopes is if they ever hear my bullhorns again outside, they'll know, okay, like, uh, Something's coming again. 33:08 Derek Mm-hmm. 33:09 Phil But it feels like it all happened oddly too fast for me. 33:15 Phil Remember, it's a very personal fight for me too. And so it's a weird one. 33:20 Phil I felt as though my life had a lot more purpose back when it was very clear. 33:26 Phil I had a target, I had a specific finish line. And now that we're past it, I'm sort of in this void where I'm like, What the hell am I supposed to do now, right? 33:35 Phil And again, being sued is, is, you know, don't get sued. Don't get sued. 33:40 Given Yeah. 33:41 Phil But it's been fun. But I don't want to do it no more. 33:43 Phil It's been fun? Well, I've— because it's worked out for me. 33:46 Derek Okay. 33:46 Phil That doesn't happen very often. Very often it doesn't work out for people, but for me it's worked out. 33:52 Phil But, you know, how long are you gonna risk that? So now I'm sort of assessing what What level of sticking my neck out do I want to do, or is it time for some other punk kids to pick it up for me? And then, you know, I'll be there. 34:03 Derek Pass the torch on to them. 34:04 Phil Exactly. So it's feeling like that a bit. And good, the future's bright. 34:09 Phil But, you know, there is this weird grief about it all. 34:12 Phil I guess ask me again in a month's time when those animals are all gone, because it might be— I have a feeling the relief will be welcome because I've been carrying a lot of weight for a long time. 34:22 Phil Every time an animal dies these days, People are wanting to blame me. 34:24 Phil You know, it's a weird PR spin that's happened of late. 34:28 Phil So, you know, it'd be nice to be able to tell them. 34:33 Phil It'd be nice to have my told you so moment, but we'll see. 34:36 Derek Yeah. 34:38 Derek All right, well, that's it for the first half of the podcast. We're gonna come back in just a second. 35:42 Given All right, so we're back with the second half of the interview, and we just have some more questions for you, Phil, that are kind of more student-facing as well, uh, more of your philosophical ideas. 35:56 Given So the first thing that I'd like to ask you is, do you believe that there's a version of humans and marine animals interacting in some sort of managed setting, like a sanctuary or a research 36:08 Given facility, anything that you genuinely call positive? And what would that sort of look like for you? 36:15 Phil So that's the obvious next step. And that's gonna be a question of when industry and activists finally sit down and have a conversation of what becomes, because, you know, very often when you talk to 36:25 Phil organizations, it's one end of the spectrum and only. 36:28 Phil So it's not a question of any gray area. It's not a question of approximations of how do you get to a point? 36:34 Phil It's always, that's not good enough, we need this. 36:37 Phil Okay, that doesn't actually benefit the animals in a lot of ways too. 36:40 Phil It's a low reward, high risk endeavor to take marine mammals and just immediately throw them into the wild. 36:47 Phil That's not gonna work. That's gonna be a terrible outcome. 36:52 Phil So what becomes is there's gonna have to be found a way for the animals to, or rather for these facilities to continue to profit while looking after the interests of the ever-evolving animal needs. 37:03 Phil And I say this because the facilities are only now starting to acknowledge those needs because of public pressure. 37:08 Phil And ever-evolving, meaning at some point they're going to realize synthesized water in a concrete tank is just not good enough for these animals. 37:16 Phil We have to do something to address that, which is going to require ocean or sea. 37:22 Phil So at some point they're going to be reintegrating whales. 37:26 Phil I'm assuming we'll start with orcas, but reintegrating into more natural settings. 37:32 Phil But again, to stay profitable, that's going to require the industry itself to still make profit. 37:38 Phil So in what capacity exactly by wave interaction, I don't know. 37:43 Phil I think proximity is going to be a thing. People are going to want to get close to them. 37:46 Phil I don't think they're going to be swimming with orcas. 37:48 Phil That's not going to happen. You know, I wouldn't suggest it either. 37:52 Phil It's not good. You know, it might bring some human joy, but the risk is not worth it. 37:59 Given Yeah. 37:59 Phil And it's certainly not at the expense. But that's going to happen. Yeah. It's just a question of when. 38:06 Given When and how? 38:07 Phil Well, it's a question of who's gonna be the leader. 38:11 Phil SeaWorld's obviously the biggest voice. They're gonna have to be a part of that. 38:14 Phil But it's gonna take them losing for a while, and they're not losing enough yet. 38:20 Given Yeah. 38:21 Phil So I've always said, and I maintain, that even if we were winning on all fronts, Marine mammal captivity, or especially whale captivity— let's say, let's call it whale captivity— is, is going to last 38:32 Phil for another 100 years. It just is. And that's if we're winning aggressively. 38:37 Phil It's going to still continue for another 100 years. 38:39 Phil So, uh, you know, we just got to fight hard for 100 years and see what that looks like on the other end. 38:42 Phil But it's— we're a long ways, yeah, before the industry wants to sit down and have any conversations with the likes of myself, that's for sure. 38:49 Given It's kind of, um, it's kind of evolutionary for us too to have Make friends with animals, want to be close with them, and that sort of thing. 38:58 Phil Uh, yep. Also, I, you know, with, with AI coming out, um, you wonder just how much the communication, uh, gap is going to be bridged. 39:09 Phil And if that happens, I think that's going to accelerate a lot of, uh, a lot of the progress in these areas because, uh, you know, the second you can start communicating with a dolphin or whale, 39:19 Phil you're going to find out fast that they don't want to They don't want to be friends with you. So— 39:23 Given Well, I think about your bond with Smooshy, and I wonder, do you think that part of that had to do with the fact that she was in captivity, or do you think that it was one of those things that were natural, it kind of was meant to happen? 39:37 Phil So, it was natural in that that's what happens with walrus babies. The mothers imprint on them. 39:45 Given Yeah. 39:46 Phil But it was unnatural in that it would happen with a human and at 18 months of age. 39:51 Phil That happened in an instance, in a moment. It was a lottery win. 39:58 Phil And, you know, I've been blessed with a lot of these weird little— I call them lightning strikes, where suddenly, you know, boom, it's a lightning bolt. It's like a lightning bolt strike. 40:07 Given Mm-hmm. 40:07 Phil And, you know, your life changes drastically, and you ride that wave for a bit until the next lightning bolt strike. 40:14 Phil And, you know, some people live their entire lives without a single sniff at a lightning bolt, and I've just been blessed with several strikes on repeat. 40:23 Given Yeah. 40:23 Phil And so when you say, is it something that was meant to be? 40:25 Phil Well, in a philosophical way, yeah, it's certainly the reason that I exist was for all of that to happen, because all of that to have happened in the way that— and what became of Marineland and of 40:36 Phil the world was an energy that I was just here to sort of have the best seat in the house. 40:43 Phil It just flowed through me. I was just, you know, I was just the vessel for this, this thing that to have happened again, I couldn't have orchestrated it. 40:52 Phil I don't— it couldn't have been orchestrated more perfectly. 40:55 Phil So what do you attribute that to? What do you call that? 40:58 Given Yeah. 40:59 Phil If you win the lottery 100 times in a row, do you say, do you call it luck still? 41:03 Phil So it was just one of those things where I'm like, okay, I guess I'm, I guess I'm going to be in the hot seat for a while. 41:07 Phil I'll have the best seat in the house. But it's gonna be a hell ride, and it was. 41:12 Given Yeah. You think it's possible though to love an individual like the way that you did in your relationship with Smooshy and still want to see some sort of system that could facilitate— like, I guess, 'cause it's kind of a paradox. 41:29 Phil Yeah, the Smooshy thing is, it's also anomalous. That doesn't exist, right? 41:32 Phil Yeah, it's a very unique thing. It's an entirely unique thing. 41:36 Phil Yeah, you don't see it. It doesn't happen. I mean, you see it sometimes with birds, they'll imprint on owners and you see them go for a ride in their boat and the boat— then the bird's flying right 41:42 Phil next to them. It's, you know, it's a little more common in certain spaces, but for that to have happened in a, you know, entirely doesn't— so it's, it's a weird one. 41:53 Phil Um, you know, Smooshy needs to remain in captivity. 41:56 Phil She doesn't have the same fear that the other animals had because she thought she was in a natural environment when her brain did that thing. 42:05 Given Right. 42:05 Phil She didn't have that same fear. She also didn't have that separation that every other animal has from her mother suddenly. 42:10 Phil She had me in that proximity that her mother would otherwise have been providing. 42:14 Phil So she had, you know, she, she didn't have the same anxiety as the other animals. 42:18 Phil So captivity serves her differently than it does other animals. 42:22 Phil You're not going to establish a bond like that. You're not going to synthesize one. 42:25 Phil You're not going to manufacture it. It's not going to happen again. 42:28 Phil If it does, It's not a net benefit to anybody or anything. 42:36 Phil So to try to replicate it or to create an environment where people would be able to try to feel that, it's not possible. 42:44 Phil Mm-hmm. Should there be a place that exists because humans want to love animals and get close to them? 42:52 Phil Not for that purpose, no. Some things are meant to stay a mystery and some things are meant to remain in, in in fantasy, and my relationship with Smooshy should have been there. 43:02 Phil That should have been left for fantasy only and for cartoons. 43:04 Given Yeah. 43:05 Phil And so, I, you know, I don't wish it to happen ever again. 43:08 Phil It shouldn't. There shouldn't be an environment where it does. 43:11 Phil I wouldn't want to encourage one. You know, captivity is going to serve her for the rest of her life, as it has to. 43:16 Phil Most of the animals that are in captivity now will have to. 43:18 Phil Do I want to encourage other people to love that? 43:20 Phil No. I want the opposite. I want people to look from a distance. 43:24 Phil I've always said it, and I can attest You know, when I saw orcas in the wild for the first time, it was more amazing to see them take a deep breath than it was to watch them do double backflips in a 43:34 Phil tank. It just was. And, you know, and I witnessed it all. 43:36 Phil So let me tell you, it's far more interesting and awesome to see a whale fart in the wild than spray you and do a— tell you a joke in captivity. It just is. It's hands down every time. 43:49 Given Yeah. 43:50 Phil For everybody. No one's like, you know what, I like this better. Nobody. 43:53 Given So you think if SeaWorld were to kind of revise their practices and take a different approach, would you even have trainers be existing in that model? 44:04 Phil Yeah, there still will be. They'd be called caretakers. 44:06 Given Okay. 44:07 Phil There would still be an exercise regiment, so they would still be trained to do things that are— that have net positives for the animals. 44:15 Phil I mean, you want to keep them mentally stimulated, you want to keep them you know, engaged in their environment, things can get real bored fast. 44:23 Phil And that's a misconception people have. They think that if they drop these animals in the wild, that, you know, it's game on. 44:28 Phil They'll just be like, hey, this is so great, and bask. 44:30 Phil No, they can deteriorate mentally pretty fast if they're not properly engaged. 44:34 Phil And not all animals are gonna be suitable for certain levels of release, but— You're good. 44:40 Given I was actually gonna ask you about, I think it's Bill, S-203. 44:45 Given Yeah, that had some major changes in Canada. How do you feel about that? 44:53 Phil It was effective in doing exactly what was— in serving Marineland in the exact way that it was meant to, which was address the animals' needs, and if the facility can't, then get rid of them. 45:08 Phil And that's exactly what happened. Marineland was at risk of major fines if they continued their breeding program, so they had to stop that. 45:14 Phil which exposed the fact that animals were dying at such a rampant rate. 45:19 Phil You know, they weren't able to ship the animals arbitrarily to China, which would have been far more profitable than the net result now, which is, you know, to spread the animals in and around the 45:28 Phil US. It's less stressful on the animals. So that was a win. 45:33 Phil Marina wasn't able to bring in more animals shortly before the law had passed, but while it was in talks, Marina was trying to bring in more orcas. 45:42 Phil They were down to one. They wanted more. Uh, you know, public opinion effectively dissuaded that from happening, and law complicated that. 45:50 Phil So, uh, it's a big win. Uh, it's being modeled now in, in Australia. 45:54 Phil I did a testimony for legislation in, uh, in, uh, in, uh, New South Wales. 46:02 Phil Um, you know, France has got a situation where they've got 2 orcas that are going to be moved. 46:07 Phil It's not, it's not the best Result, but it's exactly what winning looks like. 46:13 Phil And winning isn't always the prettiest picture. It's just not. 46:17 Phil Sometimes winning involves a lot of losing. You know, they talk about, you know, 3 steps forward, 4 steps back. It's sort of like that. 46:26 Given Yeah. 46:27 Phil That's what winning looks like. But yeah, it's a net win for the animals. 46:31 Given It's kind of a gritty sort of fight. 46:35 Phil It's just not— no one wants to know how the sausage is made, right? 46:38 Phil It's just one of these things where if you look at the reality of things, even winning in too many examples is losing. 46:46 Phil And there's a lot of compromise in all of it. And the crazy thing of it is we're sitting here talking about winning and losing. We're not even the animals. 46:53 Given Yeah. 46:53 Phil We're not the animals. So be the whale for a second. 46:56 Phil Ask the whale, are you winning or are you losing? 46:58 Phil Well, it's kind of a tough one. Yeah, like winning is getting shipped to another place. 47:03 Phil Like, I don't know. So, but it has to happen, you know. 47:07 Phil There needs to be examples. Examples need to be made of, of abusers. 47:11 Phil And Marineland's a perfect example of how not to, uh, address allegations of animal abuse. 47:18 Phil What they should have done was invested in the facility, in the infrastructure, uh, instead of a PR company and lawsuits. 47:25 Given Mm-hmm. I mean, for better lack of terms, as you've been a professional shit disturber, I kind of wonder about the financial reality of being a full-time animal welfare activist. How do you actually pay rent doing that? 47:47 Phil So you have to be flexible and evolve all the time because there's no money in what I do. 47:55 Phil In fact, there's only net losses. If I had to look at what this thing cost me over a lifetime, but I wouldn't trade it, uh, my journey for anything in the world. 48:06 Phil You know, I was blessed with— again, if I wasn't— if it wasn't for Joe Rogan, I'd be, I'd be toast today. 48:11 Given Yeah. 48:12 Phil But because I managed to go on a show as often as I did, I managed to pay a lot of legal bills. 48:16 Phil You know, over my lifetime now, I'm probably nearing— and, you know, bear in mind, I also paid for my girlfriend's lawsuit, a helicopter company in Miami's lawsuit, an animal care supervisor's 48:34 Phil lawsuit, and my own. But we're nearing about $1 million. 48:36 Phil In my lifetime, I will have cost $1 million in lawyers. 48:39 Given Wow. 48:40 Phil And I couldn't have never sustained anything like this. I should have been absolutely destroyed. 48:44 Given Yeah. 48:45 Phil But I was blessed with public support and, you know, with the likes of a lot of celebrities, et cetera, that we got through it. And, you know, look what happens when you can. 48:53 Given Yeah. 48:53 Phil Like, look at the net result. We won. You know, I saved the walrus. 48:56 Phil She's saved today. In every which way that I had dreamt up that she had to be removed, it happened. 49:01 Phil Marineland's dust today. It actually worked. Would I change that for anything? 49:05 Phil Can you put a price on that? No. But how do I keep food on the table, et cetera? 49:09 Phil Well, you gotta evolve, so. Had to start a business early when this all happened. 49:14 Phil I started a concrete business too late in life because that made my back terribly sore. 49:19 Phil That lasted a few years, then I took whatever monies that I managed to, to make, I invested that into what is now the Airbnb. And as you see, this is a beautiful little space. 49:30 Given Yeah. 49:30 Phil So the Airbnb takes care of the house, let's say, like it takes— it obviously reduces rent. 49:36 Phil But I've also got live-in tenants. I've got people living, essentially I've had to make people, I have people live in my house to try to afford to live. 49:44 Given Yeah. 49:44 Phil But that, you know, these are the ways that you evolve. 49:46 Phil I've, you know, I became a volunteer firefighter for a lot of years and that's, that was working and that's paid for, by the way, that's a paid gig. 49:54 Phil But then I chose beard. So I, you can't have a beard as a firefighter. 49:57 Phil So I chose beard, but then again, so started, you know, multiples of businesses. 50:02 Phil I work for the federal government now. Uh, in a small capacity, which is Canada Post. 50:06 Phil Uh, but I'm there every morning, you know, so I have a government job. 50:10 Phil I, I did some on a federal level. I did government work at the municipal level when I was working as the volunteer firefighter, which again pays, as I stress. 50:19 Phil I've had people living in my house come and go on a weekend basis with the Airbnb and otherwise have tenants in here. 50:25 Phil So you just got to evolve. And you also— I had to live lean. 50:29 Phil It wasn't until my lawsuit was essentially wrapped up that I bought a vehicle that's that's more reliable. 50:34 Phil Up until about 3 years ago, I drove absolute beaters. 50:38 Phil Like, I lived— I basically had to eat my own puke for breakfast. That's how it was. But that's a life well lived. 50:46 Given Yeah. 50:46 Phil But it's nothing glamorous about it. I mean, this looks more glamorous than it was. 50:50 Phil This takes a level of sacrifice. And every day, I'm like, you'll see me looking. 50:53 Phil In fact, I'm always looking to see if, you know, how's Bitcoin doing? 50:57 Phil Because I bought a little bit of Bitcoin in all of this because I tried to find a way In my life especially, I've got problems. 51:04 Phil I had lawyers following me. The government was on me, all these people, and they're trying to sink their teeth in my assets. 51:12 Phil They want to keep me broke forever. Then I discovered Bitcoin. 51:15 Phil And that was a lot of years ago. So I'm always thinking, I'm trying to think ahead. 51:21 Given Yeah. 51:21 Phil And so I've made a lot of moves that hopefully eventually pay off, but at this point they've kept my head afloat. 51:26 Phil But yeah, it's It's a constant evolution. These days you need that. 51:30 Phil You need multiple streams of income. I don't think I'm— I saw this a long time ago. 51:35 Phil I thought there's not gonna be a 9-to-5 career anymore that sustains a roof over anyone's head. And this is at this point tried and tested today. 51:42 Given Mm-hmm. 51:42 Phil And I could be example of that. You know, I could be a full-time mailman, but it actually pays me less to not. 51:47 Phil I'm best to do it part-time in the morning, make myself more available for other opportunities, be it, you know, whatever. 51:53 Phil And I keep evolving. What do I have to do next? But I've had to keep my life fluid like that. 51:58 Phil I mean, at one point I was an on-call— imagine this— I was an on-call pallbearer. You know what that is? 52:04 Given Yeah. 52:04 Phil So I would get called. 52:05 Given Weddings? 52:05 Phil Yep. Show up to a wedding, just wear a nice— or not weddings, oh, it's funerals. 52:09 Given Oh, funerals. 52:10 Phil Show up to a funeral, stay quietly at the back, and just wait, and then go out, carry, because they don't have enough people in the family to carry. 52:20 Phil And so I would carry into a hearse, drive the hearse to the other place, take it out, put it on a And then watched the guy do the little ceremony while I sat in the car. 52:28 Phil And I remember that a lot of years ago, but I was, you know, that was a $50 cash deal per gig. 52:34 Phil So I was like, okay, I'll do that. I worked in the back of a grocery store. 52:38 Phil You know, I played in bands. I did everything and anything to just— 52:41 Given Possibly, yeah. 52:42 Phil But it's what it took, but it worked out. And, you know, when you have a level of determination and conviction like me, you're gonna, you're gonna you're gonna be okay. 52:52 Phil And I'm blessed with that. I evolve with the times, but it's never a pretty picture. 52:58 Phil Anyone that thinks that there's an easy path, throw that out immediately because you're gonna finish last. 53:03 Phil You're gonna eat last. The train's gonna pass you by. 53:09 Phil As long as there's someone out there that's willing to sacrifice more than you, then there's always someone that's gonna be better than you. 53:15 Given Mm-hmm. 53:16 Phil That's just what I had to do, evolve and figure it out. And I still do. I still continue to. 53:21 Given So if you— if there was like an undergraduate student and they said that they wanted to do what you do now, what would you warn them about before they start? 53:32 Phil There is no doing what I do. I couldn't even define what it is that I do. 53:36 Phil I would say more so it's something that I did, but the thing that I did was unique. 53:42 Phil So I guess if If someone wants to do what I do, it would be a question of carving your own path. 53:51 Phil If I were to offer direction in how to carve your own path, go exactly where the scariest place takes you. 53:56 Phil So where I went is all the places Marineland's lawyer threatened me not to. 53:59 Given Mm-hmm. 54:00 Phil When he told me, you better shut up, I spoke up louder. 54:02 Phil When he told me, you better not bring a bullhorn to the demonstration, I brought it. 54:07 Phil When he said, you know, when they started suing everyone around me and everything else, And rather than cower, I went on every podcast possible. 54:15 Given Yeah. 54:16 Phil So I went exactly to where I was threatened to not go. 54:20 Phil And so what I would say to people is rather than imagine any type of finality or what the finish line looks like, now be guided by the thing that, I'll use the word excites you the most, but I wanna 54:37 Phil include fear in that. Because a lot of times fear and excitement can be misconstrued. 54:42 Phil And so go to the place that makes you sweat the most. 54:44 Given Okay. Yeah. 54:45 Phil So if you want to do what I do, the easiest, the most effective path would be to go to the scariest place, right? 54:54 Phil Take the elevator to hell and then figure— find the ladders. 54:57 Given Find the way back up. 54:58 Phil Yeah, that's what it is. 55:00 Given So would you— are there any kind of other causes outside of the marine world where the work that you do is relevant, or, you know, maybe some colleagues that you've met along the way that are doing kind of similar things? 55:13 Phil So much like earlier I'd mentioned Bitcoin, for me it's about sovereignty. 55:16 Phil It's about— I don't like being censored. I don't like, uh, that, you know, I don't like that, uh, that, that people can take things from others and that, that there's, that there's other— there are 55:27 Phil people out there that want what you have and they want to find a way to take it from you. 55:31 Given Yeah. 55:32 Phil So for me, that's my voice. It's— be it finances, be it anything, it's now for me, it's all about sovereignty. 55:38 Phil So, uh, in any which way that society tries to take away, be it, uh, voices, or like our voice, or, um, you know, especially when it comes to finances, and, and, and just the, the thought of 55:52 Phil sovereignty is, is what excites me these days, of being able to disappear in a moment with, you know, having no possessions. 56:02 Phil So I'm trying to reduce my life in a lot of ways, but I ultimately, I would say I'm an advocate for freedom. 56:09 Phil And, you know, it's reflective in how I fought for Smooshy's freedom. 56:12 Phil Her freedom looks different today, but being free from Marineland is freedom. 56:17 Phil But for me, it's about, I just, I never want for someone else to treat me like a piece of gum again, where they think they could chew me up and spit me out. 56:25 Given Mm-hmm. 56:26 Phil I rose for the occasion here. I did it again. I don't want to do that again. 56:30 Phil So now I'm sort of preemptively making my world so small and making it such that you can never get a piece out of me. 56:37 Phil There's never more than $1,000 in my bank account and everything else goes to other places. It's, you know, it's— 56:49 Given It's life. 56:50 Phil Sometimes the thing that you think is your hero is actually your fucking enemy. 56:55 Given Mm-hmm. 56:55 Phil And it's true to be said, I was at Marineland and I believed in Marineland, and that was like a second home to me. 57:02 Phil They betrayed me. And then when I, you know, spoke out about that, they saw that as betrayal. 57:09 Phil And then they come after me in ways I would have never imagined. 57:13 Phil It'd be like family turning on you. It's what it sort of felt like. 57:18 Phil And in a lot of these spaces, a lot of people will befriend you or get close to you because they want something from you. 57:22 Phil There's a net benefit. Now in this latter portions of my life, I wanna protect myself from that. 57:28 Phil So now I'm starting to build a bit of a shield around me where I'm not gonna allow myself to be vulnerable in the ways that I'm seeing too many other people make the mistake of allowing themselves to 57:37 Phil be. And this is what I try to stress to people these days, especially young people. 57:42 Phil You don't wanna be reliant on anybody but yourself and especially not one certain entity. 57:47 Phil So be it, Your job. If you're entirely reliant on one thing only, you're going to find yourself, especially later in life— 57:54 Given Stuck. 57:55 Phil Stuck. And in the scariest ways. And with life now getting more expensive and your prospects of owning a home and even at some point a car and all the other things getting further and further and 58:06 Phil further, there's still opportunity to get ahead in life, but you're going to have to be creative as hell and take the path that makes you sweat the most. 58:15 Phil And for me, that's, uh, that's the ultimate way of being free is not being bogged down by that stuff. 58:22 Given Yeah. 58:22 Phil So, you know, sometimes you gotta slice yourself in 1,000 pieces to be able to survive that, but that's what success is gonna look like in the future, is not having to, to work 9 to 5 or stress every 58:36 Phil fucking day of your life. You know, those lawsuits taught me a lot. 58:40 Given Yeah. 58:41 Phil As they would, as they should. 58:42 Given Yeah. 58:43 Phil Well, there's humility that comes to it, whether, you know, the Marineland, it was entirely fabricated, same as the Miami. 58:49 Phil They just— these are just ways of them exercising power. 58:52 Phil And when you, you get humbled by that because there's a system that's there to try to help them to do that, and you're just like, yeah, but I'm telling the truth and everything they're saying is a 59:00 Phil lie. Okay, well, enjoy the next 10 years and half a million dollars proving that. 59:04 Given Yeah, it's hard. 59:06 Given That's— 59:07 Phil I'd rather— I'd rather— 59:10 Given yeah. 59:11 Given I mean, you found a needle in a haystack. 59:13 Phil Yeah, well, I was like, again, I was lucky to survive it, but the lessons learned is make it such that they can't get their— they can't sink their claws into you. They can't sink their teeth into you. 59:25 Given So in a month now, once everything is kind of— well, not entirely over, but kind of over, What's next for you? 59:34 Phil That's a good question. I've got— I'm looking forward to that because that to me is these— is me being spit out, right? 59:39 Phil They've chewed me up. When they spit me out, I don't know what I'm gonna— I don't know what that version of me looks like. 59:45 Phil There's gonna be a breather to take in all of it because, you know, I've made a lot of the mistakes in life where I let other people make the decisions for me. 59:55 Phil And what I mean by that is if you wait too long in too many ways, decisions get made for you. 1:00:01 Phil because all your other options get stripped away. 1:00:04 Phil So, you know, I'll be 50 years old in a year and a half and I'll be staring down, what do I want life to look like after this? I want it to be less complicated. 1:00:13 Given Yeah. 1:00:14 Phil Oddly. And so that's a symptom of what it is that I've gone through. 1:00:18 Phil And also, you know, getting older, I want a quieter life. 1:00:23 Phil I don't want necessarily to, Again, I want for other people to be effective. 1:00:30 Phil I want other people doing what I do. And I would love to help in that capacity. 1:00:35 Phil But for me to continue to do it, not in the way that I have. 1:00:38 Phil I don't know that I'll be dangling out of helicopters anymore. 1:00:42 Phil I don't know that I'll be going undercover in ways that I have anymore. 1:00:46 Phil I just, that's meant for other people to experience so that other people can figure life out. 1:00:52 Phil But I don't know, something much quieter, I think. 1:00:55 Given Yeah. 1:00:55 Phil Just have a quieter role in what I do, I suppose. 1:00:58 Given Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. 1:01:01 Given That's the end of the episode, guys. Thank you so much for tuning in, and we appreciate having you on, Phil. 1:01:08 Phil Thanks for having me. 1:01:08 Given And we'll see you all guys on the next episode of So You Studied Bio. 1:02:10 Given Phil's story reminds us that making an impact doesn't always begin with the degree you earn. 1:02:15 Given Sometimes, it starts with passion, experience, and the willingness to stand up for what you believe in. 1:02:21 Given Although Phil didn't follow a traditional biology path, his journey shows the different ways someone can contribute to animal welfare and conservation, from working directly with animals to advocacy 1:02:33 Given and public education. His story also reminds us that there isn't one blueprint for success. 1:02:38 Given Being adaptable, taking risks, and staying committed to your values can take your career in directions you never expected. 1:02:46 Given A huge thank you to Phil for sharing his story and experiences with us. 1:02:50 Given Thank you for watching the So You Studied Bio podcast, and we'll see you in the next episode. Take care. 1:02:56 Given Views, opinions, and statements expressed by guests and hosts on So You Studied Bio are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of the University of Toronto Mississauga, the University of 1:03:06 Given Toronto, or their staff, students, or faculty. This podcast is produced independently as part of the Research Opportunities Program and is intended for informational and educational purposes only. 1:03:19 Given Nothing said on this podcast should be taken as professional, medical, legal, or financial advice. 1:03:26 Given Please consult a qualified professional for guidance specific to your situation.
